swedish army trangia stove - daft question

jacko1066

Native
May 22, 2011
1,689
0
march, cambs
Hi All, Im sorry but I have got a really question that I seem to be self answering but I think Im mising something.

Last night I won an auction on Ebay for a swedish army trangia stove and mess kit, I have read lots of info on them and they look excellant, and for £10.50 new/unissued I think its a pretty good price tbh!!

My question is this, I no that the trangia stoves run on alcohol or meths?? but where and what make or alcohol? and where do I get it form?

Im obviously missing a trick here and I apologise for my stupidity lol

Cheers
Steve
 
Last edited:

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,991
28
In the woods if possible.
Not silly questions. There's a surprising amount to learn about stoves. I think that's one reason that I like them. Then of course they're on fire, so that's another reason. :) :campfire:

To clarify:

Both methanol and ethanol are amongst a group of compounds known as 'alcohols'. They are also called "methyl alcohol" and "ethyl alcohol" respectively.

Pure ethanol is the stuff in beers, wines and spirits. In the UK, to buy it pure is very expensive because it's drinkable so there's duty on it. There's no duty on the undrinkable variety. Methanol is similar to ethanol but much more poisonous. And yes, ethanol is poisonous but not very poisonous like methanol is.

'Meths' is an abbreviation for what we in the UK call "methylated spirits" which is more or less ethanol with something like five or ten percent methanol added (or not taken away, depending on how you look at it). Normally in the UK, meths is dyed purple and has an unpalatable flavouring added in an attempt to stop people drinking it. People still drink it, but not so many now. Amongst other things it makes them go blind. There may also be other health issues because the manufacturing process for meths is not intended to produce anything which a human can drink, so there may be impurities in it which are dangerous if consumed. Used sensibly as fuels in camping stoves the alcohols are perfectly safe. They're a lot less unpleasant to handle than most oil-derived (hydrocarbon) fuels like paraffin and petrol.
Unlike the oil-derived fuels, alcohols will mix in any proportion with water so for example they will wash off your skin easily. The main components of meths are pretty much the same as what we call "surgical alcohol" in the UK so in an emergency I would be happy to clean a graze with it or something like that. That isn't medical advice. :)

Hydrocarbon fuels burn with a very smoky flame unless used in some sort of pressure stove, but alcohols generally burn very cleanly in any simple burner. You will get about 800 watts from one of the common meths burners, this is plenty for cooking (and in fact you can burn food easily if you aren't careful), although the 'Evernew' burner produces even more heat than that. When you first light them the power output is a lot less than the maximum, but they warm up and produce a 'bloom' which is the result of the alcohol boiling in the burner and escaping through lots of little holes. The flame suddenly gets a lot bigger and there may be a 'pop' when that happens. Don't be concerned by that. All the same, always work outside with it in a well-ventilated area (any stove produces some carbon monoxide), and keep it very well away from flammable materials until you get used to it. The meths flame can be hard to see in daylight because it is very pale so people sometimes burn themselves and set light to things by accident because they couldn't see a flame. Compared to pressurized petrol and paraffin stoves it is a feeble flame, strongly affected by wind. The stove in your new set is in part a windshield. Alcohols freeze and meths stoves will work at very low temperatures. The military burner doesn't have a way of reducing the flame, but the civilian burners usually do. I made a flame adjuster for my military one with a piece of tin can, it doesn't need to be as complicated as the commercial ones. A pair of leather gloves and/or a pair of pliers can be handy to handle hot and/or slightly sooty pots and bits of stove.

As has been said, in the UK you can buy the alcohols over the counter in all sorts of places. It's worth shopping around, because prices vary enormously. The target price is just over a pound a litre.

I use one of these stoves for cooking quite a bit. I like them but not everyone does. I generally prefer to boil water using e.g. a twig kettle because boiling water uses quite a lot of meths. When you get used to using your new cookset you should be able to heat a decent meal from canned food with 15 grammes of meths. Meths has a density a little over three-quarters of the density of water, so 15 grammes is a little over 20ml. Because there's oxygen in meths, you get a fair bit less heat per gramme than you do from hydrocarbon fuels.

Please let me know if I've missed anything. :)
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
3
Hampshire
One thing about this Army Trangia is the fact that you can use the windshield on its own as a wood-burning stove (useful if you run out of meths or just want a real fire!). It does turn the windshield a nice coppery colour, and the metal does get a bit "softer", but I've used one for years and its still fully-serviceable as a windshield for the trangia kit.
 

ateallthepies

Native
Aug 11, 2011
1,558
0
hertfordshire
Is there any difference between the burn characteristics of methylated spirit and pure methanol? I know they are both alcohols and will both work in a Trangia but given a choice is one 'better'?

Thanks,

Steve.
 

PDA1

Settler
Feb 3, 2011
646
5
Framingham, MA USA
Ethanol (meths) gives more heat per ounce. Methanol has a lower boiling point so blooms more easily in very cold weather. I suspect that meths is more widely available in the UK.
 

jacko1066

Native
May 22, 2011
1,689
0
march, cambs
Not silly questions. There's a surprising amount to learn about stoves. I think that's one reason that I like them. Then of course they're on fire, so that's another reason. :) :campfire:

To clarify:

Both methanol and ethanol are amongst a group of compounds known as 'alcohols'. They are also called "methyl alcohol" and "ethyl alcohol" respectively.

Pure ethanol is the stuff in beers, wines and spirits. In the UK, to buy it pure is very expensive because it's drinkable so there's duty on it. There's no duty on the undrinkable variety. Methanol is similar to ethanol but much more poisonous. And yes, ethanol is poisonous but not very poisonous like methanol is.

'Meths' is an abbreviation for what we in the UK call "methylated spirits" which is more or less ethanol with something like five or ten percent methanol added (or not taken away, depending on how you look at it). Normally in the UK, meths is dyed purple and has an unpalatable flavouring added in an attempt to stop people drinking it. People still drink it, but not so many now. Amongst other things it makes them go blind. There may also be other health issues because the manufacturing process for meths is not intended to produce anything which a human can drink, so there may be impurities in it which are dangerous if consumed. Used sensibly as fuels in camping stoves the alcohols are perfectly safe. They're a lot less unpleasant to handle than most oil-derived (hydrocarbon) fuels like paraffin and petrol.
Unlike the oil-derived fuels, alcohols will mix in any proportion with water so for example they will wash off your skin easily. The main components of meths are pretty much the same as what we call "surgical alcohol" in the UK so in an emergency I would be happy to clean a graze with it or something like that. That isn't medical advice. :)

Hydrocarbon fuels burn with a very smoky flame unless used in some sort of pressure stove, but alcohols generally burn very cleanly in any simple burner. You will get about 800 watts from one of the common meths burners, this is plenty for cooking (and in fact you can burn food easily if you aren't careful), although the 'Evernew' burner produces even more heat than that. When you first light them the power output is a lot less than the maximum, but they warm up and produce a 'bloom' which is the result of the alcohol boiling in the burner and escaping through lots of little holes. The flame suddenly gets a lot bigger and there may be a 'pop' when that happens. Don't be concerned by that. All the same, always work outside with it in a well-ventilated area (any stove produces some carbon monoxide), and keep it very well away from flammable materials until you get used to it. The meths flame can be hard to see in daylight because it is very pale so people sometimes burn themselves and set light to things by accident because they couldn't see a flame. Compared to pressurized petrol and paraffin stoves it is a feeble flame, strongly affected by wind. The stove in your new set is in part a windshield. Alcohols freeze and meths stoves will work at very low temperatures. The military burner doesn't have a way of reducing the flame, but the civilian burners usually do. I made a flame adjuster for my military one with a piece of tin can, it doesn't need to be as complicated as the commercial ones. A pair of leather gloves and/or a pair of pliers can be handy to handle hot and/or slightly sooty pots and bits of stove.

As has been said, in the UK you can buy the alcohols over the counter in all sorts of places. It's worth shopping around, because prices vary enormously. The target price is just over a pound a litre.

I use one of these stoves for cooking quite a bit. I like them but not everyone does. I generally prefer to boil water using e.g. a twig kettle because boiling water uses quite a lot of meths. When you get used to using your new cookset you should be able to heat a decent meal from canned food with 15 grammes of meths. Meths has a density a little over three-quarters of the density of water, so 15 grammes is a little over 20ml. Because there's oxygen in meths, you get a fair bit less heat per gramme than you do from hydrocarbon fuels.

Please let me know if I've missed anything. :)

WOW!!!! That is a great reply, thanks ever so much for all the replys!! I knew it would be a very simple answer but the idea of using some metholated spirits from a iy store to cook with seemed pretty strange lol
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,991
28
In the woods if possible.
Is there any difference between the burn characteristics of methylated spirit and pure methanol? I know they are both alcohols and will both work in a Trangia but given a choice is one 'better'?

Ethanol (meths) gives more heat per ounce. Methanol has a lower boiling point so blooms more easily in very cold weather. I suspect that meths is more widely available in the UK.

PDA1 is right about the methanol/ethanol comparison, as far as heat content is concerned going from meths to methanol is about the same as going from paraffin to meths, a touch over three quarters of the energy per kilo. I've never used methanol in stoves so I don't know how big a difference it makes to bloom times in normal use and I don't know if the burn times are different, that could make a big difference to the power output of course. I believe Richard (rik_uk3) gets meths from eBay at around a pound a litre and I think he prefers it because it burns a bit cleaner. He can probably tell us the answers, and he might have done already -- try something like

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=1...lient=psy&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=rik_uk3+methanol
 

Gotte

Nomad
Oct 9, 2010
395
0
Here and there
I had a swiss army volcano kettle which was ruined by burning wood in it, which is ironic, seeing as it's supposed to have wood burned in it. It turned so soft that an inadvertent press on the side bent it pretty badly. It bent the base as well, which I've never been able to get flat, and now it rocks on flat ground.
The Swedish Army Trangia has a much thicker windshield, though (so I believe), so this should be less of a problem, but if you do burn wood in it, beware, it will go softer.
 

Jinsin456

Settler
Nov 14, 2010
725
0
Maybole, Scotland
A good tip for you in time would be to maybe upgrade the burner to the civilian version as it it smaller so can be packed easier and also it comes with a simmer ring. You could alternatively make your own simmer ring though from a small circle of metal if I remember correctly.

The simmer ring is good as it can save a LOT of fuel and also allows you to cook things like pasta easier as I find that the burners themselves are great for boiling water quickly but if you try and cook then the things you are cooking tend to get stuck to the bottom due to too much heat and due to the shape of the SAT (Swiss Army Trangia) Billy can it can be quite hard to clean the burnt on stuck stuff (I like my pans spotless, wee bit of OCD going on there :lol:).

You can buy the civilian burners for about £10 and they are well worth this IMO but have a play first and see what suits you because if you are mainly cooking boil in the bags and brew ups then the standard burners are absolutely perfect but if you fancy getting more adventurous and making pasta, soups etc then the heat control is a real bonus. Another thing to remember is that these stoves can be hung over a fire so another way to save on fuel and you can also burn hexi blocks/green heat in the windshield as well as light a fire.

Hopefully my ramblings will help out in some way and hope you get some good use out of your new stove :)
 

jacko1066

Native
May 22, 2011
1,689
0
march, cambs
A good tip for you in time would be to maybe upgrade the burner to the civilian version as it it smaller so can be packed easier and also it comes with a simmer ring. You could alternatively make your own simmer ring though from a small circle of metal if I remember correctly.

The simmer ring is good as it can save a LOT of fuel and also allows you to cook things like pasta easier as I find that the burners themselves are great for boiling water quickly but if you try and cook then the things you are cooking tend to get stuck to the bottom due to too much heat and due to the shape of the SAT (Swiss Army Trangia) Billy can it can be quite hard to clean the burnt on stuck stuff (I like my pans spotless, wee bit of OCD going on there :lol:).

You can buy the civilian burners for about £10 and they are well worth this IMO but have a play first and see what suits you because if you are mainly cooking boil in the bags and brew ups then the standard burners are absolutely perfect but if you fancy getting more adventurous and making pasta, soups etc then the heat control is a real bonus. Another thing to remember is that these stoves can be hung over a fire so another way to save on fuel and you can also burn hexi blocks/green heat in the windshield as well as light a fire.

Hopefully my ramblings will help out in some way and hope you get some good use out of your new stove :)

Brilliant, thanks for the info, I have read alot that its worth upgradng to a civvi burner, but I cant seem to see what the difference is other than the simmer ring. Do they work any better?
My cook set has turned up now, and Im mega impressed with it!! Although I do question how the people I bought it from graded it, to quote 'this cookset is in supergrade condition, many of the parts are brand new and unissued' I no they are very old but if this is super grade condition, I would rather stay well clear of the grade 2 gear!!! dents, deep deep scratches, the burner itself has been very well used, the windshield is a bit ropey too, I thought at the very least the meths bottle would be brand new but I was obviously wrong, paid top dollor for it to because of the advertised condition.
Still, Im sure it will clean up ok, just gotta get myself somemeths now and have a brew.
Thanks again for the help guys

all the best
Steve
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,991
28
In the woods if possible.
Brilliant, thanks for the info, I have read alot that its worth upgradng to a civvi burner, but I cant seem to see what the difference is other than the simmer ring. Do they work any better?

Somebody once told me that an elephant is a greyhound built to government specifications. :)

The civvy burner isn't so heavily built as the military version, so even with the simmer ring, which the military version doesn't have, it's lighter.

My military burner weighs 182g empty, 300g full so it holds almost 120g of meths.
My civvy burner weighs 113g empty, 212g full so it holds almost 100g of meths.

The military burner is substantially bigger, it takes longer to get up to full power especially when it's cold. That may actually be an advantage for cooking rather than just heating water.

More often than not I use the civvy burner, mostly because it leaves more room in the cookset so I can get more other things in.

My cook set has turned up now, and Im mega impressed with it!! Although I do question how the people I bought it from graded it, to quote 'this cookset is in supergrade condition, many of the parts are brand new and unissued' I no they are very old but if this is super grade condition, I would rather stay well clear of the grade 2 gear!!! dents, deep deep scratches, the burner itself has been very well used, the windshield is a bit ropey too, I thought at the very least the meths bottle would be brand new but I was obviously wrong, paid top dollor for it to because of the advertised condition.

Complain about it. If it wasn't as advertised they ought to replace it. I'm not a great fan of mail order, I bought mine over the counter after rummaging through a box full of them for a good one.
 

jacko1066

Native
May 22, 2011
1,689
0
march, cambs
Somebody once told me that an elephant is a greyhound built to government specifications. :)

The civvy burner isn't so heavily built as the military version, so even with the simmer ring, which the military version doesn't have, it's lighter.

My military burner weighs 182g empty, 300g full so it holds almost 120g of meths.
My civvy burner weighs 113g empty, 212g full so it holds almost 100g of meths.

The military burner is substantially bigger, it takes longer to get up to full power especially when it's cold. That may actually be an advantage for cooking rather than just heating water.

More often than not I use the civvy burner, mostly because it leaves more room in the cookset so I can get more other things in.



Complain about it. If it wasn't as advertised they ought to replace it. I'm not a great fan of mail order, I bought mine over the counter after rummaging through a box full of them for a good one.

I see, well the fact that it heats up quicker and is smaller is very appealing, is there any particular burner I should get?
I have just mailed the guy on Ebay, to tell him Im nt very happy with the condition of te set, and as the seller has 100% feedback I thught I should contact him before I ruin his very god seller record.hopefuly I will get a good response from him.
Cheers
Steve
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,991
28
In the woods if possible.

jacko1066

Native
May 22, 2011
1,689
0
march, cambs
Quality, thanks for the advice, I have just been looking at Tatonka Alcohol Burner from lakeland bushcraft, the seem to get very good reviews, nly problem is they are out of stock on the simmer rings for now so I will keep an eye on it. Will be a pity if I do have to send it back as its quite a nice system, and as there is no where close by to go and actually pick one Im kinda stuck with internet shopping.

Cheers
Steve
 

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