Sweden plans to be world's first oil-free economy

[Lurch]

Don't go yet!
I want to know more about the below:

That simply isn't true. Organic fertilisers are as effective as non-organic fertilisers.

Where are the organic fertilizers coming from?
What are we talking about? Animal by product or grown fert?

 

[Pappa]

Where are the organic fertilizers coming from?
What are we talking about? Animal by product or grown fert?

Does it really matter? All organic fertilisers work by bacterial decomposition. They are generally slow-release (compared to chemical fertilisers). Their constituents will depend on what they're made of, so different organic fertilisers will be suitable for different plants.

Growing plants organically is different to growing using chemical fertilisers. Organics isn't about feeding the plant, but about feeding the soil's micro-organisms; which in turn feed the plant. Farms and gardens free of chemical fertilisers and pesticides have a much greater diversity of soil critters and larger wildlife. These all do their job to keep the plants healthy and remove nasties from the system.

This is all basic organics, nothing wacky or fringe thinking.

Pappa

 

[Great Pebble]

Organic farming is more labour intensive though.

 

[Pappa]

Maybe, maybe not. If you include the labour invested in producing and transporting chemical fertilisers, and also the labour invested in removing the resulting nitrates from our drinking water and other forms of nitrate related pollution, then perhaps it comes out on balance (in labour and financial costs too).

 

[Great Pebble]

Good point...

My only caveat would be that "organic" does not necessarily mean safe in terms of potential for pollution. Haven't got the book to hand at the moment, nor am I sure that it's a particularly authoritive text but I know Michael Allaby was particularly, 'strident', I think is the word on the subject.

 

[Lifthasir]

I'm afraid organic fertilizers don't come anywhere near the effectiveness of
'commercial' fertilizers. If they did, they would take the place of commercial
fertilizers.

It's simply wishful thinking that organic fertilizers can compete on a commercial
scale.

Food is a commercial product and we are spending less and less on food
as the years pass by. The dole would not feed a family if they had to buy
organic. It is the masses who benefit from industrialized farming methods. It
is better for poor people who would otherwise starve or be afflicted by disorders
such as rickets to eat mass produced food. OK they may be slowly poisoning
themselves but one can't argue with the average life expectancy in the UK these
days.

Bushtuckerman mentioned a steady transition as the oil runs out. This is
basically why we have the Green type movements pushed a little more these
days and marketing ploys such as 'Global Warming'. We are starting to see
the transition taking effect. We are beginning to experiment now with a return
to more 'organic' practises. It will never be complete as there are too many
people in the world.

Experiments re. fertilizers have already been conducted and yields dropped
significantly. So, we have seen GM experiments to see if yields can be
maintained. I am opposed to GM. Tinkering with the fabric of nature is
unpredictable - despite what geneticists claim (if they claimed otherwise they
wouldn't receive funding).

It's been argued on this thread that individuals making small contriubutions is
pointless. I disagree. If everyone grew a line of spuds, or carrots etc. or grew
one tomato plant in a warm room - it would make a huge difference. I am
surrounded by market gardens and used to work in them as a kid - I wouldn't
recognise the frankenstein breeds they grow these days. I brought some tomato
seeds from Russia (that my wife's grandma prepared). They were so tasty!
Better than the finest organic vine ripened ones from M&S by miles!

Intensive farming is needed to sustain large populations. The better off people
will afford organic. However, there is a lot we can do to improve things. Support
local produce and visit local farm shops and such like.

I've just planted (last year) a couple of hazel shrubs - grown from wild seed.
Rather than dig up the brambles that infest my garden, I've started to cultivate
some of them. I've got raspberry, gooseberry and black currant growing
as well, plus apples, plums and cherry. It's a battle to get to it before the birds and wasps though!

Is there any excuse for Asda to sell imported apples in the Autumn? I couldn't
find hardly any English apples in Asda last season...tragedy!

 

[Great Pebble]

Everybody's not going to grow that line, anymore than they're going to stop using their cars or (in J.T's case) their private jets.

Why should they? Asda has cheap imported apples.

 

[Lifthasir]

Not everyone can - many live in flats...but the more that do, the better.

We can't 'force' people to behave in a certain way. If we do, then we basically
follow the will of the person holding the gun.

 

[Lurch]

Does it really matter?

Yes it matters a great deal. If we are talking about animal poop then what are they eating, how is this fertilized.
If we are talking about plant grown to be fertilizer where is this grown and how is this fertilized?
In either case you need a whole heap of extra land to produce this, where is it coming from? You are going to need all your productive land for food growth and the non-productive land by definition isn't going to be much use for producing organic matter fertilizer.
Artificial fertilizer scores because it does not require land for it's production and it is easy to transport and apply, where natural product (animal waste) is available this is used in addition to artificial stuff not instead of in most instances (aside from Organic farming obviously).

 

[Great Pebble]

Which is why, ultimately the small sacrifices and efforts you (or the "type" of people here) will generally make are worthless for any purpose other than your own feeling of self worth. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

It's just pointless doing it and expecting that it will halt or significantly slow mans impact on the ecology of the planet. The nature of man is such that the money saved on homegrown veg. Will be spent on....something.

Meanwhile Jing-Peng is travelling by steam train from his mountain village to purchace his first car....

 

[Lifthasir]

I must echo Lurch's comments. My wife's grandma always said the best
fertilizer was cow dung. However, you need a LOT of pasture per cow,
plus extra to hay-cut for winter feed.

Organic farming is also 'seasonal'. If we suffer a poor season, there isn't enough
produce to go around. Industrial farming eliminates much of this thus ensuring
production quotas and limits exposure to starvation.

Organic farming also requires set-aside land. Normally left fallow or seeded with
clover for a year of two (on which cows graze).

I wish we could be organic - but we can't. Even if prices tumbled so that we
could al lafford it - as Lurch has said we simply don't have the land.

There are some things we can all do. Buying organic milk is perhaps the
easiest step. It's not much more than non organic.

 

[Pappa]

Yes it matters a great deal. If we are talking about animal poop then what are they eating, how is this fertilized.
If we are talking about plant grown to be fertilizer where is this grown and how is this fertilized?
In either case you need a whole heap of extra land to produce this, where is it coming from? You are going to need all your productive land for food growth and the non-productive land by definition isn't going to be much use for producing organic matter fertilizer.
Artificial fertilizer scores because it does not require land for it's production and it is easy to transport and apply, where natural product (animal waste) is available this is used in addition to artificial stuff not instead of in most instances (aside from Organic farming obviously).

But not all plants require fertiliser in the way it is understood via conventional farming. Organic fertiliser is waste, it is not produced especially for the job. Compost, leaf-mould, bone-meal; they're all waste products or bi-products, which don't need extra fertiliser for their production (extra to the first purpose of producing goods). Also some plants fix nitrogen and add it to the soil, and some bring it up from deep below, where it is unavailable to other plants; this nitrogen is free.

Also some fertilisers are 'free', in the sense that they can be harvested from renewable sources, like seaweed.

So your idea that everything needs fertilising to produce more fertiliser is wrong.

Lifthasir,

Organic farming does not require set-aside, fallow land. Crop rotation and addition of compost perform much the same functions.

And Organic farming may be seasonal, but so is conventional farming. I don't follow your logic.

 

[Great Pebble]

But not all plants require fertiliser in the way it is understood via conventional farming.

Any examples?

 

[Pappa]

Any examples?

Grass. Nitrogen fixing plants (like Peas and many other Legumes). Plants which bring up nitrogen from deep below the topsoil (which are then composted). Seaweed. Trees.

 

[Great Pebble]

Ahh right... As materials for organic fertilizer?

 

[Lurch]

Pappa my friend, the sources of fertilizer you describe will fall a long way short of replacing the current requirements for fertilizer. A long way.
You mention grass as not requiring fertilizer, this is not entirely true. Virtually all grassland used for farming purposes has fertilizer applied to improve yield.
Your ideals seem worthy but I think your understanding of agriculture is a little patchy.

 

[ilovemybed]

Grass. Nitrogen fixing plants (like Peas and many other Legumes). Plants which bring up nitrogen from deep below the topsoil (which are then composted). Seaweed. Trees.

Believe this man - he knows his plants!

See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle for how it works.

 

[Great Pebble]

I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of agriculture is very limited, but certainly what I do know would tend to indicate that farmers do fertilize grassland.

 

[Pappa]

You mention grass as not requiring fertilizer, this is not entirely true. Virtually all grassland used for farming purposes has fertilizer applied to improve yield.

What about the grass that grows all over the place in unsuitable conditions like motorway verges and everywhere else. It seems to cope pretty well without any fertiliser.

Pappa my friend, the sources of fertilizer you describe will fall a long way short of replacing the current requirements for fertilizer. A long way.

But Lurch, don't you see. I only quoted those things as arguement against your idea that all items used as fertiliser would need fertilising themselves. In one of my previous posts I mentioned the basics of organic production; you don't feed the plant, you feed the soil. Almost all organic fertilisation is based around the idea of adding nutrient rich compost to the soil to improve it. Compost is waste plant matter; plants are not grown specifically to produce compost (with certain exception such as Comfrey). If compost isn't used, then some other waste product is used instead, with the goal of improving the fertility of the soil. We will never run out of compost. Not only is there so much of it that in some counties you can pick it up for free from your local council, but tons more potential compost gets landfilled every year. None of this requires additional fertiliser for its production.

Your ideals seem worthy but I think your understanding of agriculture is a little patchy.

Thanks. I'll bow out now as I can see I'm wasting my time.

Pappa

 

[Lifthasir]

Pappa,

my lawn is 1/4 acre..pretty big! When I've cut the grass, I have enough cuttings
to fill two of the large green composter bins. After a couple of weeks, the grass
composts down to about half of one container...it gets smaller the more it
composts.

When we are talking about pasture for cattle, it needs to be lush pasture to
maintain the herd's health and mile production. If the herd eats scrag ends,
health and yields deteriorate.

Also, composting takes time. There isn't much time between harvesting a crop
of wheat in the late summer and planting a 'wintering' crop for the next year (rape).

Good pasture doesn't happen by accident. Good pasture isn't as easy to come
by as people think.

Chemical fertilizers also put 'goodnes' into the soil so that plants can extract it.

The amount of compost available for free at the council depot is a drop in the
ocean if you are thinking of a 30 acre field. A few flower beds in people's
gardens is nothing compared to the average arable field. No where near enough.