Sweden plans to be world's first oil-free economy
- Thread starter tomtom
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
- Status
Lifthasir said:
Well we switch off the telly and have turned the heating down... got an allotment, new house so havent cut grass yet so can't comment on that... accelerate slowly ...
:11doh:Shopping... towns... isn't that what the internets for???I'd agree with all of the above, but it's also an illustration of how petty and trivial the attempts by those in first world nations to reduce their personal consumption are.
"buy a mulching lawn mower" - How about using a scythe or just letting the grass grow?
"accelerate your car slowly" - Walk.
"buy a solar battery charger" - Don't buy things that use poisonous batteries.
I'm not suggesting that everybody actually do that (though it wont hurt
) rather making the point that as part of an industrialised society, the gestures you make along these lines are trivial. How many years of mulching your lawn with your new mulching mower would it take, for instance, to equal the "carbon cost" of the manufacture, import and transport to your house of the mower itself?It's just a matter of where you set your personal standard with relevance to what is "essential" and what is "wasteful".. Harken to the "Parable Of John Travolta":-
John Travolta is fond of flying. He owns an ex-Quantas Boeing 707 (early 4 engined intercontinental jetliner) and a Gulfstream 2 (twin engined business jet).
One day John decides to go and visit a movie star friend who lives a hundred or three miles down the road. He goes out to the hangar and is climbing up the steps into the 707 when he thinks "What about the planet?"...
Instead he climbs aboard the Gulfie. and flies off to see his mates.
All weekend John felt really smug about his contribution to the environment.
Great Pebble said:
Ah but he does insist on wearing a new shirt everyday because washing detergents are bad for the environment.....
I think it's important that 'industrialised' nations do what they can. People
aren't going to give up their lives and become small holders - there isn't sufficient
land for starters.
If a million people turn off a 100W bulb for one hour each when it would normally
be on, we would save approx. 2,850 barrels of oil each day. (working on an
average of 35kw/h per barrel). That's over 1million barrels per year. Not petty nor
insignificant.
Individually, it is insignificant as has pointed out in the above post. Collectively,
the difference is massive! Driving carefully, switching off, growing your own
veg (using traditional old seed varieties!!) etc. all makes a difference if
sufficient people do it. People aren't going to give up technology. Fire bows
are technology, steel blades are technology - just isn't going to happen.
I can't walk to work as my job involves travelling around. I accept the point
regarding the energy that would go into a new lawn mower - one of the reasons
I haven't yet bought a mulching mower (mine, which I bought from the previous
owner, is still going strong). But when it finally conks out, the new one will be
a mulcher. The scythe idea is wishful thinking - working people don't have the
time.
That other well know looney 'crackpot' Prince Charles has finally been proved
right (again) in that he believes poor surburban planning is a root cause. People
no longer live close to work. It's not just that, where people live is so
fragmented that public transport in the UK doesn't really have a hope.
aren't going to give up their lives and become small holders - there isn't sufficient
land for starters.
If a million people turn off a 100W bulb for one hour each when it would normally
be on, we would save approx. 2,850 barrels of oil each day. (working on an
average of 35kw/h per barrel). That's over 1million barrels per year. Not petty nor
insignificant.
Individually, it is insignificant as has pointed out in the above post. Collectively,
the difference is massive! Driving carefully, switching off, growing your own
veg (using traditional old seed varieties!!) etc. all makes a difference if
sufficient people do it. People aren't going to give up technology. Fire bows
are technology, steel blades are technology - just isn't going to happen.
I can't walk to work as my job involves travelling around. I accept the point
regarding the energy that would go into a new lawn mower - one of the reasons
I haven't yet bought a mulching mower (mine, which I bought from the previous
owner, is still going strong). But when it finally conks out, the new one will be
a mulcher. The scythe idea is wishful thinking - working people don't have the
time.
That other well know looney 'crackpot' Prince Charles has finally been proved
right (again) in that he believes poor surburban planning is a root cause. People
no longer live close to work. It's not just that, where people live is so
fragmented that public transport in the UK doesn't really have a hope.
Actually..been thinking (steady!) about the mulcher. I reckon it would break
even quite quickly. Using one would:
1. negate having to collect all the grass cuttings - huge time saver.
2. negate putting the cuttings into a plastic bag (which most people do)
3. negate driving to the compost tip to get rid of the cuttings.
4 negate stopping and starting the mower to empty the grass box.
5. negate the need for oil based lawn feeds - associated production costs,
transport costs, storage costs etc..
It would last at least 10 years (if looked after). I reckon the payback would be
quite good and quite quick.
I don't mind technolgy - I mind poor design.
even quite quickly. Using one would:
1. negate having to collect all the grass cuttings - huge time saver.
2. negate putting the cuttings into a plastic bag (which most people do)
3. negate driving to the compost tip to get rid of the cuttings.
4 negate stopping and starting the mower to empty the grass box.
5. negate the need for oil based lawn feeds - associated production costs,
transport costs, storage costs etc..
It would last at least 10 years (if looked after). I reckon the payback would be
quite good and quite quick.
I don't mind technolgy - I mind poor design.
Sorry. It's still all negligible. A tiny drop in a very large ocean and pretending it's not is deluding yourself.
And you're right... People aren't going to give up their jobs, their toys or anything else, China and the developing world aren't going to stop expanding at a geometric rate. People will continue to do "what they can" which would more accurately be termed "what is convenient" and the climate shall continue to change....
I'm as guilty as everyone else and wouldn't try to claim otherwise.
And you're right... People aren't going to give up their jobs, their toys or anything else, China and the developing world aren't going to stop expanding at a geometric rate. People will continue to do "what they can" which would more accurately be termed "what is convenient" and the climate shall continue to change....
I'm as guilty as everyone else and wouldn't try to claim otherwise.
wow! paranoia is reaching new heights. even if your car is very fast, or is built like a hummer, is it really a force of the universe? i feel that our effect on the climate is not such a force, rather a symptom of human behaviour, which we surely have a right to change.
Unless one feels there are religious 'rights' and 'wrongs' to take heed of, what is this concept exactly? every species will try to adapt, you cannot expect everyone to lie down and give up, even if you want to blow your last few wads of cash on some short-lived excitement despite them...metaphorically speaking.
Lithril, Global Warming is the term used to describe the anthropogenic warming effect we have, so is not natural. Climate change, and the glacial-interglacial cycle is natural.
The levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are higher than they have been for about 650,000 years, and they are set to reach unprecedented levels. You simply cannot attribute the changes in global temperature we are eperiencing to natural variation alone, the forcing they contribute is far too small.
however many polls are used to display the denial of global warming, it is still not a popularity contest.
we all knew he was an idiot anyway, there are plenty of ecologically safe detergents to use.
Unless one feels there are religious 'rights' and 'wrongs' to take heed of, what is this concept exactly? every species will try to adapt, you cannot expect everyone to lie down and give up, even if you want to blow your last few wads of cash on some short-lived excitement despite them...metaphorically speaking.
Lithril, Global Warming is the term used to describe the anthropogenic warming effect we have, so is not natural. Climate change, and the glacial-interglacial cycle is natural.
The levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are higher than they have been for about 650,000 years, and they are set to reach unprecedented levels. You simply cannot attribute the changes in global temperature we are eperiencing to natural variation alone, the forcing they contribute is far too small.
however many polls are used to display the denial of global warming, it is still not a popularity contest.
Lithril said:
we all knew he was an idiot anyway, there are plenty of ecologically safe detergents to use.You can lie down and give up, you can downshift and live on a 100% organic x in - x out freehold or you can buy a six and a half litre 4x4 and drive it for as long as you can keep up to the fuel bills.
Whatever course you choose. Be prepared for the effects of climate change/global warming. They're coming.
Whatever course you choose. Be prepared for the effects of climate change/global warming. They're coming.
Lifthasir, i agree, people will simply not give up technology, it's a ridiculous idea, so technology has to become part of a changing approach (whether you believe global warming is happening or not). 'Green' technologies are often poorly designed simply because they have not had the investment of other environmentally unsound infrastructures, no-one get's it right first time with new technology.
Great Pebble, break any idea down into it's working components and they alone will appear useless, this is not a fair analysis. Changing our lifestyles now, even slightly, is neither petty nor useless, it may only make small changes now, but we reap the benifits by paving the way to better ideas. You have to make that first, seemingly useless step to make big change possible. People who can imagine past the visible horizon are those able to lead from the front. It is also about allowing people to care as we do on this forum.
It is also trivial how much this country alone can do on the global scale in terms of reducing emissions, but just think how many third world countries are influenced by ours through the media. There is also peer pressure with other first world countries to consider. This country's policy on the environment is far reaching, so it has to change.
I've got few problems with Prince Charles personally, he bakes nice bread after all.
Great Pebble, break any idea down into it's working components and they alone will appear useless, this is not a fair analysis. Changing our lifestyles now, even slightly, is neither petty nor useless, it may only make small changes now, but we reap the benifits by paving the way to better ideas. You have to make that first, seemingly useless step to make big change possible. People who can imagine past the visible horizon are those able to lead from the front. It is also about allowing people to care as we do on this forum.
It is also trivial how much this country alone can do on the global scale in terms of reducing emissions, but just think how many third world countries are influenced by ours through the media. There is also peer pressure with other first world countries to consider. This country's policy on the environment is far reaching, so it has to change.
I've got few problems with Prince Charles personally, he bakes nice bread after all.
Like I say... Do whatever makes you feel good.
Not an iota of difference does it make to anyone but yourself.
And possibly to those who have made environmentalism their industry of choice.
Not an iota of difference does it make to anyone but yourself.
And possibly to those who have made environmentalism their industry of choice.
He kicked off the organic thing..before him it was unheard of 'fringe'.
Alas, 'Climate Change' is fast becoming the replacement for 'Global Warming'.
Obviously 'Global Warming' was felt to be not specific enough, or too detached
from everyday reality. So now we have 'Climate Change'. Give it a few years and
it will be something else the Alastair Campbells of the world feel is more 'on message'.
The Amish and the Orthodox Jews always make me chuckle. Both claim that they have turned their backs on the modern world. Modern by whose definition?
The Amish use technology which was contemporary with the 19thC and the
Orthodox Jews dress like a gent would in the 19th C.
Mankind isn't going to revert to ambushing animals and eating their raw, warm flesh by tearing it off with our teeth. Exactly which 'traditonal' methods are
preferred is an almost infinite debate. Can we ride horses? - Yes, but only
without saddles because saddles are considered to be too technological.
The idea that everyone can live organically is folly. I said in a long distant post that population control - savage population contol - is the only way for people
to live organically. However, it wouldn't last for long. Mankind is competitive
and sooner or later individuals would start to improve a bit here, tweak a bit there and before you know it we'd be off again.
Alas, 'Climate Change' is fast becoming the replacement for 'Global Warming'.
Obviously 'Global Warming' was felt to be not specific enough, or too detached
from everyday reality. So now we have 'Climate Change'. Give it a few years and
it will be something else the Alastair Campbells of the world feel is more 'on message'.
The Amish and the Orthodox Jews always make me chuckle. Both claim that they have turned their backs on the modern world. Modern by whose definition?
The Amish use technology which was contemporary with the 19thC and the
Orthodox Jews dress like a gent would in the 19th C.
Mankind isn't going to revert to ambushing animals and eating their raw, warm flesh by tearing it off with our teeth. Exactly which 'traditonal' methods are
preferred is an almost infinite debate. Can we ride horses? - Yes, but only
without saddles because saddles are considered to be too technological.
The idea that everyone can live organically is folly. I said in a long distant post that population control - savage population contol - is the only way for people
to live organically. However, it wouldn't last for long. Mankind is competitive
and sooner or later individuals would start to improve a bit here, tweak a bit there and before you know it we'd be off again.
I couldn't agree more, which is why... If mankind is the source of global warming, it is pointless trying to "resist" it.
Go with the flow... Move away from the coast and buy shares in DEET.
Go with the flow... Move away from the coast and buy shares in DEET.
Lifthasir said:
That's nonsense. Until 50 or 60 years ago, everyone lived organically. We're merely living through the non-organic experiment.
Pappa
Lifthasir said:
Actually its entirely possible to live reasonabally organically (with regards to food anyway), the only reason that we add so many fertiliser and pesticides is to increase yield (reduce price) and because we "expect" foods to look in a certain way. People of a 100 years ago wouldn't recognise the veg and crops that we eat now because they look healthier and larger and more edible... the fact that they completely lack in taste is totally irrelevant.
very good pun Great Pebble
All i can add is that i wouldn't agree it is an inevitable pull that we are 'resisting', we are entering unchartered territory, so who can be so sure?
All i can add is that i wouldn't agree it is an inevitable pull that we are 'resisting', we are entering unchartered territory, so who can be so sure?
- Status
Similar threads
