So I've just weighed my kit..

[jacko1066]

10kg dry weight for a pack is bloody good going. Nought wrong with that. It could go lighter. Doesn't mean you have to.



What he says. In all these things it's all relative. Is this the summer weight? or the winter weight? etc...



You lost 28 pounds? Did you check down the back of the sofa? (sorry I couldn't resist).



The big money tends to result in big savings in weight. Replacing a Vaude Hogan tent with a Power Lizard 1-2p SUL tent, shaves 1.8kg off the pack weight.

Replacing my Berghaus Vulcan with an Exped Lightning 60, shaves 2.7kg off the pack weight.

That's nearly 5kg off the back. For an outlay of over 400 quid. *BUT*. If you have no pack to begin with, then buying said Exped pack is in the same ballpark outlay as any other decent backpack. My Vulcan was 80 quid second hand 12 years ago.

Conversely you can get good savings with modest outlays. I replaced my old lifeventure folding KFS set that was made from Stainless steel with a set of snap wires from Alpkit, this saved me over 150gm in weight. But each snap wire only cost me £6.5.

Today my replacement for the crusader mug arrived. It's an Evernew 400ml titanium mug. It weighs 50gm on my scales (manufacturer says 52g). Combined with my cat can stove, and my snap wires, I have a brew kit of 101.5gm. My crusader mug was 290gm (BCB's own weight, not mine). The Evernew has no non stick coating to come off like my old crusader did (the actual reason I gave up on the crusader) after 10 years of (ab)use.

If you had no tarp to begin with, you could go for any of these three:

• DD Hammocks Ultralight 3m x 2.9m - 460g (includes guy ropes in weight) - £62
• DD Hammocks 3mx3m - 790gm (includes guy ropes in weight) - £35
• RAB Siltarp 2.2m x 1.5m - 200g (ex guy ropes) - £49.99

The 3m x 3m sizing of the tarp is because in a hammock you want the tarp to come down further to the ground to give you some side protection. If ground dwelling, you don't need this and can get away with the siltarp 1's slightly smaller size.

Trying to make big leaps of weight is going to largely give you big outlays of expense. But if you have very little gear already, then you can make big savings by making an informed purchase.



Conversely I don't have a car, so even for a meet I am likely to be trying to get my pack as light as I can for the walk from the train station...



I agree with the rubbishing of kit. It's horses for course, if someone is happy with their kit, then leave them be. At the same time tho, I think that for many of the fat pack (nice term, I like it) users there is a certain machoness that means that their trips often verge more on type II fun, rather than being the pleasant hike in the back country it could have been.

"So there I was, on top of kinder, the wind blowing a gale, as I and my 100lb pack leaned into the wind to make progress"

I've been there, done that, I lugged a 45kg pack across Europe to Crete and back a few years ago. Lots of great stories for the pub, some lovely photos of pretty scenery, and it was a good trip.

These days tho? I reacon I would enjoy it more if I was ok walking further from the station with my pack...



Good list, a couple of cheap weight savings you can make:

• Paracord - Replace with 2mm dyneema (I will do another group buy once the manufacture has it in stock again and I close the one that is in progress currently)
• Tarp - Take only one. With care, sense, and technique you can happily use the one tarp as both bedroom and admin area. Conversely if you leave the hammock at home, you can use a smaller lighter tarp. The hammock may be the more comfortable sleep tho.

See above for replacing the crusader cup.



Why 2 torchs + headtorch ? Not criticising, just curious as to your thought process.

I personally use a Petzl Zipka 2+ for all my camp lighting needs. It's a torch I love and has become my EDC, I even use it as a backup bike light.



As with everything, "It depends".

In the middle of summer, you can probably get away with a sleep matt underneath you and just your sleeping bag. No need for a bivvi bag or even a tarp.

If it's not pissing it down, you could use a bivvi bag(Snugpak bivvi 340g, alpkit hunka bivvi 376g) to keep the dew off you, and to weather any gentle showers.

If it is likely to rain, you could use the bivvi bag, and throw a tarp over the top. It's horses for courses.

There are many in the ultralight weight community that see the ounces on the scale as something that must be chased at all costs, and you end up with the guys with a 2-3lb pack weight. But then you realise they are sleeping on bubble wrap, with a space blanket for warmth, and taking sleeping pills so that they sleep through the night. Part of the lightness cause is realising when to stop chasing grams. You get what I've seen called "Post lightweight". These are the people who realise yes they could go lighter, but actually taking an Exped Synmat 7 UL sleeping matt is going to be more comfortable than the bubble wrap, and a good nights sleep is worth the extra weight. The people who think "Yes I can cook, eat, drink out of just the one cup, but actually, for 50g, I can take a second titanium cup, and then I can be drinking tea while I wait for dinner to cook".

To me, it's not about how light everything is, or how durable, or how heavy or if it looks cool or the fashion. It's simply this:

"Have I thought about this properly?"

Carry what you like, just think about it for a few minutes first, you may find that actually, you can save weight, and increase your enjoyment.

Thanks

Julia

Best post iv read in ages this!!!

Well done you!!


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[rg598]

10kg is not too bad of a weight. In time you can shave it down even further.

I didn't notice a water filter int he list. How do you treat your water?

Here is my attempt at creating an affordable ultralight winter backpacking gear list: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2014/04/low-cost-ultralight-winter-backpacking.html I managed to get it down to 5kg for temperatures down to 0F (-18C) for a cost of about $ 750. Lightweight Backpacking did a three season gear list at a similar weight for under $350: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2014/04/under-350-ultralight-backpacking-kit.html

On the other hand, here is my gear list. It comes in at about 5.5kg, and costs way too much:

[video=youtube_share;m8o95Dug4rY]http://youtu.be/m8o95Dug4rY[/video]

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

Afternoon Gents. Sorry been a busy morning.

So the point I was making was that it's possible to be utterly obsessed with the latest and lightest. However successfully navigating a long hike can be viewed as a bigger picture. With my recent 28lb weight loss girt my entire pack for free. At even £400 for 5kg I'm a grand saved!

But seriously folks, am a "kit *****" love that term so am stealing it. However I'm much more interested in fit and function than just weight.

In terms of the OP is 10kg heavy? Well no it's not but working out what you are hoping to do with it is pretty fundamental to the question. When I have done 30 mile days it's probably too much. Bearing in mind 2-3 kgs of water minimum and grub on top.

I'm certainly not here to rubbish kit. On the contrary, good kit looks after you and "any fool can be uncomfortable."

However is obsessing over kit as important as getting outdoors? I don't personally think so. If we were not going outdoors we wouldn't need the kit.

Bushcraft as opposed to lightweight hiking/ camping is surely more about working with and in the natural environment. "Improvise and overcome" to a certain extent but also utilising the skills of our forefathers.

Don't think for one minute that I'm taking the Cody Lundin part in Dual Survival but that is the very dichotomy in style that this debate characterises.

Would I spend 14 hours with a firebow when a Turbo Lighter would have had that fire going in a minute? No. However having the skills to create a fire by friction gives confidence.

Design your kit for a purpose. If weight is critical to that purpose then by all means obsess over it. If not focus on what you have and how it can be used. A couple trips in will really focus you on what you need and what you can leave behind next time.



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Agree with all of that but i dont think body weight lost is a linear return. The body is very efficient at storing fat in a way that decreases the stress loading. Weight in a backpack is additional to that which your body is used to so therefore there is real benefit it keeping the weight strapped to you down. Dont get my wrong im not advocating staying fat and spending more on gear though.

 

[Countryman]

My knees and feet are seeing a definite return. There is less stress on my spine and my joints. Gravity is a bitch. I am certainly less tired at the end of the day.

Just wondering if I could persuade SWMBO that £400 per 5kg is a suitable incentive for me to drop some more weight?


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[ex-member BareThrills]

My knees and feet are seeing a definite return. There is less stress on my spine and my joints. Gravity is a bitch. I am certainly less tired at the end of the day.

Just wondering if I could persuade SWMBO that £400 per 5kg is a suitable incentive for me to drop some more weight?


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I hear ya and dont disagree. My thoughts are purely based on my own experience. I definitely feel better carrying 8kg than 12kg but also feel better now than i did a year ago with bodyweight reducing too

 

[Countryman]

8kg better than 10kg? Sure thing! (insert massive caveat) but for most of us that 2kg saving isn't a biggy.
If I was hiking at altitude or aiming at 30 miles a day then yep sign me up on the OCD programme but for a bit of a bimble and a night under the stars give me the warmer bag!




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[ex-member BareThrills]

8kg better than 10kg? Sure thing! (insert massive caveat) but for most of us that 2kg saving isn't a biggy.
If I was hiking at altitude or aiming at 30 miles a day then yep sign me up on the OCD programme but for a bit of a bimble and a night under the stars give me the warmer bag!




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no 8 is better than 12 i think i said. 4kg over several 1000 feet of ascent will tell on you. As for sleeping sleeping bags, they need to be rated to the weather so i carry what i need. I find an over rated bag promotes sweat and condensation especially if using a bivy bag. Once again im only talking about walking up mountains and not general 'camping'

 

[Haggis]

Weight is weight I suppose. I try to carry as little body weight as I can. I carry some of my kit in my pockets, or on my belt, and try even harder to have no extra weight in my knapsack. I even fret over how much my knapsack weights, but I'm not an "ultra-lightist", I'm simply lazy. In my perfect world, my knapsack would carry itself, and perhaps lighten my step a bit,,,

If I'm canoeing and camping, or car camping, I really don't care how much extra gear I have along. Weight does become an issue when portaging a long portage, but since most portages are 40 rod-ish, I don't worry to much about it..

 

[Countryman]

Funnily enough as much as you feel it on the ascent the stress in the legs and particularly feet from load carrying always strikes me more on a steep descent! Dropping a stone off "the junk in the trunk" perhaps even more so important for such mountain activities then.

2kg or 4kg. Points much the same. I might feel the cold more than you. It's a personal thing. Nothing is so demoralising and energy sapping (let alone downright dangerous) as being cold and or wet.




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[ex-member BareThrills]

Funnily enough as much as you feel it on the ascent the stress in the legs and particularly feet from load carrying always strikes me more on a steep descent! Dropping a stone off "the junk in the trunk" perhaps even more so important for such mountain activities then.

2kg or 4kg. Points much the same. I might feel the cold more than you. It's a personal thing. Nothing is so demoralising and energy sapping (let alone downright dangerous) as being cold and or wet.




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i agree descending is a killer. Guess its just because we dont tend to build muscle memory in those muscle groups during everyday life. Yep cold and wet is no fun but i dont believe 'travel light freeze at night' is valid a valid argument. It is if you carry light kit thats not rated to the conditions but if you buy the right gear there is no reason to find yourself in that position.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Afternoon Gents. Sorry been a busy morning.

So the point I was making was that it's possible to be utterly obsessed with the latest and lightest. However successfully navigating a long hike can be viewed as a bigger picture. With my recent 28lb weight loss I get my entire pack for free. At even £400 for 5kg I'm a grand saved!

Losing weight that you carry around in the form of fat is something most of us need to do, and you are right, you can easily end up losing the weigh of your dream pack several times over. Unfortunately it does come with a finite limit.

I am carrying around something in the region of 5lb of fat that short of surgery I will never lose, and yet even if the guys on here have fat in the same place, weight loss will remove it. I'm talking about boobs.

Ditto my backside, and the fact that women carry fat differently to men. Yes you can lose some fat off your body and shed weight. Not everyone can lose as much. But your pack will still weigh the same...

But seriously folks, am a "kit *****" love that term so am stealing it. However I'm much more interested in fit and function than just weight.

In terms of the OP is 10kg heavy? Well no it's not but working out what you are hoping to do with it is pretty fundamental to the question. When I have done 30 mile days it's probably too much. Bearing in mind 2-3 kgs of water minimum and grub on top.

10kg is very good. It's certainly in the lightweight category. It's a good starting point, and allows someone to get out and have fun. With time tho, you can make the incremental steps to reduce weight. Upgrade your sleeping bag, upgrade your pack, realise you don't need 3 torches, etc...

I'm certainly not here to rubbish kit. On the contrary, good kit looks after you and "any fool can be uncomfortable."

However is obsessing over kit as important as getting outdoors? I don't personally think so. If we were not going outdoors we wouldn't need the kit.

Bushcraft as opposed to lightweight hiking/ camping is surely more about working with and in the natural environment. "Improvise and overcome" to a certain extent but also utilising the skills of our forefathers.

For the most part yes. But there is also a certain amount of using that knowledge for when the brown stuff hits the air con unit. "Oh my tarp has blown away" *builds leanto shelter from trees*

I would say the two compliment each other.

Don't think for one minute that I'm taking the Cody Lundin part in Dual Survival but that is the very dichotomy in style that this debate characterises.

Would I spend 14 hours with a firebow when a Turbo Lighter would have had that fire going in a minute? No. However having the skills to create a fire by friction gives confidence.

Design your kit for a purpose. If weight is critical to that purpose then by all means obsess over it. If not focus on what you have and how it can be used. A couple trips in will really focus you on what you need and what you can leave behind next time.

For the most part I agree. If kit is really that critical, you can reduce your packweight to 5.2g + the clothing you stand up in. It won't work for the Cape Wrath Trail, but for the North downs Way, it's fine to just carry a credit card and use B&B's, pubs, and cafes. (The rumours I just weighed my debit card to give you the exact number to 1 decimal place are entirely untrue... honest... I didn't have the scales to hand from earlier... no really... Who am I kidding...)

But I would suggest that it is not an option for many of us, and it may not be the most fun...

Agree with all of that but i dont think body weight lost is a linear return. The body is very efficient at storing fat in a way that decreases the stress loading. Weight in a backpack is additional to that which your body is used to so therefore there is real benefit it keeping the weight strapped to you down. Dont get my wrong im not advocating staying fat and spending more on gear though.

It's an interesting one.

If you take a reductio ad adsurdium approach to it you could just say: I will take a SOL Emergency Bivvi bag, a water bottle, a pack of puritabs, and a pack of vitamin tabs. I can leave the stove and all the eating related stuff at home, I don't need that, I have my own energy stores round my middle. One pound of body fat is 3500 K calories (approx 9Kcal per gram of fat). You burn 100Kcal per kilometer when hiking. So that 28lb of body fat gives me 980km of walking... I'm not joking here. A researcher actually took a (consenting) test subject that was overweight, and let them have vitamin pills and water only. For a year, a whole year. They lost lots of weight and to no obvious detrimental effects. Sounds bloody unpleasant to me.

The science may support it, but I don't think for one moment anyone should try it. At the same time, if I take a 10kg pack with me, and I walk one km, I have burned at least 100 Kcalories just to move the pack 1km (It's actually a lot more, as this assumes 100% efficiency). This is on top of the 100kcal you burn to walk 1km. So, when I go out for a 30km day, with a 10kg pack, I am burning 3000 + 3000, just to walk that distance. This is ignoring the calories burned not walking, just sitting enjoying the view, sleeping etc... Assuming you are only carrying 2500kcal of food with you, you're still burning 1lb of body fat per day (Me? Mix units between imperial and metric in the same sentence? oops)

Which is a very long way of saying that you can do both, walk far enough and you shall lose weight!

Enough waffle from me (no not the edible kind). I am going to go for a walk. I have 20kg of weight to lose. My pack weighs 5kg, I'll see you in 533km... Or around tea time, which ever comes sooner...

Julia

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

It's an interesting one.

If you take a reductio ad adsurdium approach to it you could just say: I will take a SOL Emergency Bivvi bag, a water bottle, a pack of puritabs, and a pack of vitamin tabs. I can leave the stove and all the eating related stuff at home, I don't need that, I have my own energy stores round my middle. One pound of body fat is 3500 K calories (approx 9Kcal per gram of fat). You burn 100Kcal per kilometer when hiking. So that 28lb of body fat gives me 980km of walking... I'm not joking here. A researcher actually took a (consenting) test subject that was overweight, and let them have vitamin pills and water only. For a year, a whole year. They lost lots of weight and to no obvious detrimental effects. Sounds bloody unpleasant to me.

The science may support it, but I don't think for one moment anyone should try it. At the same time, if I take a 10kg pack with me, and I walk one km, I have burned at least 100 Kcalories just to move the pack 1km (It's actually a lot more, as this assumes 100% efficiency). This is on top of the 100kcal you burn to walk 1km. So, when I go out for a 30km day, with a 10kg pack, I am burning 3000 + 3000, just to walk that distance. This is ignoring the calories burned not walking, just sitting enjoying the view, sleeping etc... Assuming you are only carrying 2500kcal of food with you, you're still burning 1lb of body fat per day (Me? Mix units between imperial and metric in the same sentence? oops)

Which is a very long way of saying that you can do both, walk far enough and you shall lose weight!

Enough waffle from me (no not the edible kind). I am going to go for a walk. I have 20kg of weight to lose. My pack weighs 5kg, I'll see you in 533km... Or around tea time, which ever comes sooner...

Julia

Well clearly we can survive a long time without food but the body only metabolises its own fat reserves at lower effort levels. Once you start putting your muscles through some proper work you are burnng the glycogen stored in them that cannot be replaced without eating (simple carbs are good for this)

And at any rate, who wants to walk up a hill and enjoy the view with a vit pill

 

[Countryman]

Actually the calculation on body fat is flawed. A pound of body weight might constitute a lot of fat but that fat also holds a lot of water.

It takes a lot of excertion to shed a pound of body weight.

Keep those 5lbs!


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[Clouston98]

10kg is a good weight, I carry about that with synthetic sleeping stuff for four seasons, and my waxed canvas and wool gear, which is all I use these days, weighs 12-13 kg for four seasons enough for me to be well Comfortable and with traditional materials which is where my interest really Lies.

 

[Countryman]

Sorry to resurrect this thread. Having said not to obsess over weight of kit I went and weighed my 2014 season effort which I thought I would never do. Surprised this came in at about 8.5 kgs -this is less any food, water and a little bag of tricks I call my morale bag. (Contains hip flask) and spare clothes.

I suppose I have a few Gucci items but not amazingly so I don't think.

This time of year a lighter 800gr bag is fine for me. I have a 2 season Hi Gear bag that packs fairly small. Currently on offer in Go Outdoors I notice.

Therma rest Neoair

DD Camping Hammock, crabs and webbing tree huggers.

Army issue Basha and it's paracord.

Brew kit. 4 piece Coleman Exponent, Trangia stuff and a wind up radio. Tea bags.

Plastic chopping board.

Plastic Spork and titanium KFS

Wilkinson Dartmoor knife

Loo roll.

Water filter bottle. (Soon to be replaced with Sawyer)

3l camelback

250ml bottle of dragon fire gel

Mylar poncho

Mountain leader first aid kit

Head torch.

Note pad and pen, rosary.

All are grouped into Exped drybags of varying sizes.

Packs neatly into a Berghaus Freeflow 35+8 with room to spare for the items left out in this exercise.

There are a few bits and bobs that you might notice missing from my pack but those are carried on me. Map, compass, fire kit, knife, etc.

What works for me might not for you.


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[cbr6fs]

I tend to find much over 14kg a struggle on multi day trips, if i can keep my pack weight 12kg or lighter i find i'm noticeably less fatigued.

The odd thing is that my Mrs is 50kg and she finds 12kg to be about her limit, i'm 90kg and find the same.
So although it's always wise to have a healthy percentage of body fat and not be obese in my experience it doesn't really have much relevance to what is a comfortable weight to carry in a rucksack.
Should also say i've wandered between 70kg to 90kg in the last 15 years and although still fat at 80kg that seems to be my most comfortable weight for extended hiking trips.
I was actually fitter at 70kg than at 80kg, but still struggled.

Biggest problem when discussing this sort of thing here though is the vast differences in the way all the members here experience the outdoors.

14kg on a 10 mile day following the Pennine way is a LOT different than carrying 14kg 20km up a 3000m mountain in other parts of Europe.

You've then got a section here that are more into the re-enactment side of things than hiking any distance up high mountains, be that re-enactment with Army or primitive kit.
Asking any of these members to wear polyester or something without a camo print that wasn't worn by the armed forces is like asking a vegetarian to eat a McDonalds.

End of the day we all do different activities, have different fitness levels, different kit and different levels of finances.
Best bet is to offer our best advice that way the op gets a good varied number of advice from different experiences and try to avoid judging other peoples choices, it's difficult to judge a persons kit choice until you've literally walked several miles in their shoes.

 

[Haggis]

End of the day we all do different activities, have different fitness levels, different kit and different levels of finances.
Best bet is to offer our best advice that way the op gets a good varied number of advice from different experiences and try to avoid judging other peoples choices, it's difficult to judge a persons kit choice until you've literally walked several miles in their shoes.

I'm enjoying this thread, with so many points of view. Everyone, it seems, comes from someplace different in making kit choices; geographically, mentally, financially, physically, economically, and of course, nostalgically. When I lived in the Appalachian Mountains, everything was straight up, and I wanted a very light pack, preferably one with a hot air balloon attached. Here in Northern Minnesota's canoe country the longest distance I need carry a pack, and on fairly level ground, is 80 to 320 rods, maybe 480 rods, on a groomed portage. A heavy pack here is quite acceptable; I won't be carrying it far. In canoe country one's biggest concern is canoe weight and some canoeists will pay a lot of money to shave a few pounds off their canoe weight. Portaging a 60-odd pound, 17 foot-long canoe over a long portage can be exhausting, even on very level ground. Going back over the portage for a 50-pound pack doesn't seem much of a challenge.

 

[cbr6fs]

I'm enjoying this thread, with so many points of view. Everyone, it seems, comes from someplace different in making kit choices; mentally, financially, physically, economically, and of course, nostalgically. When I lived in the Appalachian Mountains, everything was straight up, and I wanted a very light pack, preferably one with a hot air balloon attached. Here in Northern Minnesota's canoe country the longest distance I need carry a pack, and on fairly level ground, is 80 to 320 rods, maybe 480 rods, on a groomed portage. A heavy pack here is quite acceptable; I won't be carrying it far. In canoe country one's biggest concern is canoe weight and some canoeists will pay a lot of money to shave a few pounds off their canoe weight. Portaging a 60-odd pound, 17 foot-long canoe over a very long portage can be very exhausting, even on very level ground. Going back over the portage for a 50-pound pack doesn't seem much of a challenge.

I can understand that.
For me when hiking weight is extremely important, even then though i still make compromises between weight and comfort.

As an example i was really really tempted to go for PHD's new "racer down" sleeping bag
My PHD Minimus is rated to 5c and weighs 549g, the racer weighs 260g and is rated for 8c so at first glance it seems a fantastic way to save 289g.
Thing is though i use my bag year round and find the full length zip really useful on warmer nights.
Plus i had the bag made using Drishell outer so i don't have to worry so much about exposing the bag to a little rain or moisture.

If i went with the racer bag then it wouldn't be as useful as much of the year round, so i compromised and decided to continue to carry that extra 289g.

 

[Countryman]

The first time I walked a 20 mile day with a pack I was probably 16 stone (116kgs) My pack weight was 5kgs perhaps and I can tell you I was exhausted.

An average squaddie weighs just over 11st or 71kg. (Courtesy of MOD) I always think about the Yomp across the Falklands our boys did carrying 100lbs (45kgs ) of kit. All up they are 116 kgs.

I'm currently working on getting my weight back down to that level. Although it may be well distributed my joints, feet and latterly bulging discs in my spine are taking the brunt of that and having carried it a few years now my current 16kgs weight loss means that 10kg pack doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Still a bit more to go I'm afraid. I have tended to do long walks rather than mountain walks. I may do Santiago de compostella next year.

Anyone doing serious mountain treks has every right to weigh their credit card! Hats off to you. I think I'm already past it for that lark.


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[cbr6fs]

The first time I walked a 20 mile day with a pack I was probably 16 stone (116kgs) My pack weight was 5kgs perhaps and I can tell you I was exhausted.

An average squaddie weighs just over 11st or 71kg. (Courtesy of MOD) I always think about the Yomp across the Falklands our boys did carrying 100lbs (45kgs ) of kit. All up they are 116 kgs.

I'm currently working on getting my weight back down to that level. Although it may be well distributed my joints, feet and latterly bulging discs in my spine are taking the brunt of that and having carried it a few years now my current 16kgs weight loss means that 10kg pack doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Still a bit more to go I'm afraid. I have tended to do long walks rather than mountain walks. I may do Santiago de compostella next year.

Anyone doing serious mountain treks has every right to weigh their credit card! Hats off to you. I think I'm already past it for that lark.


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Well done on the weight loss, 16kg must have taken a major level of effort and determination, bravo