Sleeping bag recommendations

[Old Bones]

Andy - we know you love your Wiggy bags, but the statement

Down bags are great for occasional use, but the simple fact is that, even assuming you have no mishaps resulting in a wet bag and thereby losing ALL insulating ability, the more you use it, the more sweat and body oils get into the down. And that means failing loft and therefore insulation.

doesn't really accord with actual practice. All the manufacturers of high level kit for places like the Poles, Everest, etc (like Rab, Mountain Equipment, PHD, Valandre, Mountain Hardwear, Feathered Friends, Western Mountaineering, etc) use down. The iconic Canadian Goose Arctic jackets developed for polar researchers - down. The only synthetic sleeping bag I could find was one on Ray Mears site - which was kind of the exception that proved the rule.

So people are using down bag on a long term basis. Do they get a bit minging eventually and need a clean? Yes, of course, but that goes equally for a synthetic bag. As has been pointed out, you use a liner, treat your bag well, etc. Frankly, I have to wonder what someone would have to be doing to a bag for the need to wash it after every trip. And while its much easier just getting a company to wash a down bag for you, its not much easier washing a synthetic - even if your washing machine is big enough (and its probably not), drying is a very very long process. Your going to a laundrette, and spending a long long time there.

Wiggy bags supposedly have the advantages of being able to be vacpacced, stored compressed, and be able to be slept in totally wet. Why would you want to do any of of those things with a sleeping bag? If your needing a sleeping bag in an emergency (crashed bomber - Arctic Circle, etc) fine. But apart from that - no. Storing it compressed? people can do what they like, but the first rule of sleeping bags is to get it out of the stuff sack ASAP, because you killing the loft, down or synthetic. http://www.backpacker.com/gear/sleeping-bags/bivy-sacks/how-to-store-and-clean-a-sleeping-bag/ Storing it compressed slowly kills the bag and your investment. All my bags are in big bags, including the kids Vango synthetic - why not?

And my bags have always been put in a dry bag, sometimes two. I'm not about to chuck my kit in a river, and even if it does happen, I'm waterproofing the thing, full stop. Wet synthetic bags will be horrible to sleep in - its not much of a bonus.

I looked at the Valandre Thor - thats a very very serious bag, for high altitude very sub zero temps. They quote the EN rating as minus 15 c (worth pointing out that Wiggy has no EN rating, in fact there is nothing but a 'recommended' temp rating), reckon is fine at minus 23c, and they argue that minus 35 c is where they are aiming. Looking at their reputation (and equivalent bags), they may be right. You posted a link to a Wiggy 'Ultralight'(!) bag which reckoned it was fine at zero degrees, but weighed 4lb (hence the amazement at the phrase 'Ultralight'). And this gives a clue to why Wiggy bags more then live up to their supposed temp ratings - they are hugely over engineered. Pile on enough insulation, and it will live up to expectations and more - but the price you pay is possible sweating (very bad) plus a bag which is probably about the size and weight of a hatchback. So what is the actual temp rating of the bag you have, and is it directly comparable with the Thor?

People seem to love Wiggy's bags, with an almost religious intensity, but its impossible to find any actual independent reviews of them. Even the likes of GearLab comes up with nothing. Trailspace has users reviews, and they are mostly very good, but they seem to be spread over a very long time period (some go back 1997!) http://www.trailspace.com/gear/wiggys/super-light/#review34485. Look at a brand like Mountain Hardwear, I can read 8 reviews of their Lamina 20 alone http://www.trailspace.com/gear/mountain-hardwear/lamina-20/ , which are spread over no more than about 5 years.

As for his lifetime warrenty...you've got to actually collect it. Set aside the logistics of returning a bag from the UK to the US (there are lots of good reasons to buy local!), the impression is that Wiggy is a 'character', in the way many would say 'Donald Trump..he's a character'. There was one (very supportive) review which mentioned that in the times when he'd rang Wiggy about an issue,

' he's always been very knowledgable, as well as helpful, and yes...at times even blunt or short with me. But my contact with him has always remained civil, as well as educational and informative.'

I'm trying to imagine a review of Rab, ME, etc where its a customer service plus if you ring them and they 'remained civil'!

So while Wiggy might have a lifetime warrenty, I'm not sure its 'no question'. In fact, I wonder if its like getting money from Donald Trump...you might get it back, you might not, but your fairly sure its not going to be that easy.

Would I spend about £140 (plus shipping and whatever customs stung me for) on a sleeping bag from half way around the world which I'd never seen, had no independent reviews, and was kinda heavy? No. On the other hand, I can wander down to my local Cotswolds or Go Outdoors and see what they've got. They have synthetic bags (which have lots of reviews) on site for the same money or less. If there is a problem, I can just take it back. And they will have stock of the main down bags as well.And for the same money, I can get a well-reviewed down bag from a UK company, which again, will take it back if there is a problem.
I'd start there, and see how you go.

 

[Andy BB]

"Independent Reviews" Interesting phrase. if you mean the "sports" magazines, one reason for Wiggys not having any is that he refuses to provide them for nothing - ie if they want to review a bag they have to buy them. Secondly, magazines survive financially through paid adverts, and Wiggy doesn't advertise. So magazines don't review Wiggy bags because Wiggys provide no free bags or advertising revenue. Personally, I am always sceptical of "paid" reviews of gear, particularly in magazines who also get advertising revenue for the product. Published bad reviews could have serious financial implications for a magazine in terms of advertising revenue or free gear (the latter is also true of those individuals who make a living from testing blogs etc.

Genuine "independent reviews" are from people who have paid for the product and used it over a period of time, without an axe or financial interest to grind. Like me And of course, others on here who have come to the same conclusions after actually using the Wiggys bags.

As for temp ratings, I compared two bags - the Valandre Thor and a Wiggys Superlight.- Both kept me warm in similar temps (circa -17 to -20C), but not much lower. Some bright spark pointed out that 4lb (Wiggy bag) is hardly light, yet failed to understand that the Thor bag providing similar levels of warmth in real life, weighs 6.2lbs! Clearly he must have confused kg with lbs

True, you can use liners, but remember that sweat, water vapour and some of the body oils etc will pass through the liner into the bag proper. And personally, I can't get on with liners as they are not fixed to the bag and end up getting into all sorts of knots if you actually move around in the bag. And remember that if you use a liner, that adds additional bulk and weight. And then add onto that the bulk/weight of a waterproof bag to carry the down bag in.

I must congratulate those who frequently camp who have never had any accident whatsoever. My own experiences differ markedly! True, a new down bag in ideal conditions, whose tent never has condensation or leaks, who never spill a prop of water, coffee, cooking fat, pot pan or bottle leak etc (or see earlier comment about friend who spilt a bucket containing about two litres of urine over his bag) will keep you warm. One recent example I've mentioned before in my post "Wally to the Arctic" was when, due to an uneven snow floor in my tipi, my Exped mattress and Wiggys bag (Ultima Thule) slid partly out of the open entrance overnight. (this at -27C). I woke in the morning to find the last foot or so of bag and mattress exposed to the elements (including snowfall). Yet not only had I slept through the whole episode but my feet and the rest of me were still warm. How about that for an "independent review"

 

[Andy BB]

ps - Wiggys bags are rated in Fahrenheit, so their Zero degree bags are actually -18C. A common mistake

 

[ammo]

Really enjoying this thread, lots of great information and opinions. I don't think anyone is wrong, rather right from their own perspective.
As I said, lots of good info, keep it coming please.

 

[Old Bones]

As for temp ratings, I compared two bags - the Valandre Thor and a Wiggys Superlight.- Both kept me warm in similar temps (circa -17 to -20C), but not much lower. Some bright spark pointed out that 4lb (Wiggy bag) is hardly light, yet failed to understand that the Thor bag providing similar levels of warmth in real life, weighs 6.2lbs! Clearly he must have confused kg with lbs

While I cannot comment on your particular experience of sleeping in both bags, and how warm you are in them (because how warm we feel can be a very individual experience), my original point was that its was possibly unfair to compare those two bags in terms of weight, since they had notionally different temp ratings. The Wiggys bag is rated as comfortable at minus 20 degrees C, or zero degrees F. That class is often known in the States as a 'Zero' bag, like these http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Sleeping-Bag-Down-Cold-Weather-Reviews . Its great that the Wiggy's bag performed well at minus 17-20 degrees, however, the Valandre bag is actually rated by the manufacturer at roughly minus 30-35 degrees C http://www.valandre.com/sleeping-bags/thor.html . I have no idea why it didn't seem to really keep you warm at that temp, but certainly thats what they claim, and at least one review says they were fine with them on Everest in a storm at minus 30. The Rab Expedition 1000 (rated at minus 40) is 1.92kg, so the weight isn't unusual for that class of bag.

However, if I was looking to compare weight against other zero rated bags, then something like the Feathered Friends Snowbunting or the MH Phantom 0 weight about 43 ounces - thats about 1220g. Which is perhaps a third less than the Wiggy bag (which weighs 64 ounces), and because they are down, will compress rather better as well. The Rab Andes 800 (rated at minus 21) comes in at 1.44kg, the Tundra Pue and Dry -20 is 1.35kg, etc. And those brands of course have reputations, so you'd expect their temp ratings to be on the slightly conservative side.

I know not everyone gets on with liners, but even if you dont use them, bags should not need that much washing - think how often we wash our duvets at home, considering just how much we are using them. And a dry bag is a very small amount to carry compared with all the other equipment we use as well, but it does keep stuff dry (including synthetic bags)! And since most bags these days (certainly zero ones) will have DWR fabric, and possibly hydrophobic down as well, spills, etc are not the disaster they once were.

You've given a review, which is great, and once again, we are glad that you like Wiggy's bags (I perhaps think is Valandre that should be worried). But ultimately, its one person's opinion, with no context to similar bags, standard temp ratings, etc. And thats what perhaps so frustrating - that by not allowing any reviews, he's perhaps doing himself a disservice. Ok, so no freebie review bags (although since they are $180 retail, it wouldn't that much to send one or two out), but I understand that OutdoorGearLab do buy their own stuff, but havn't bothered with them at all (although looking at their relative weight, I can understand why in relation to their target audience).

Its not unknown for film studios to release a film without the critics seeing it first. This is often dressed up as some noble attempt to let the public see the film without the stupid critics getting in their head, etc, but usually its because its a stinker and they want as much of the audiences money before word gets around. The cynical might see his refusal as an attempt to to be judged against the rest of the market, rather than just general cussedness. Since he isn't shy about proclaiming how good his bags are ('the best in the world'), why not put them to the test? If they are good, then they will shine. A group test with other zero rated synthetic and down bags would be very useful, and wouldn't do any harm for his sales.

I don't think anyone is wrong, rather right from their own perspective.

Totally correct. Sleeping bags are one of the things you buy (like boots, pack, etc) where although you can look at reviews, ask questions, try them for size and fit in store, until you actually using it, your never quite sure if it will work for you, assuming your using it appropriately. Its very much an individual thing. So my suggestion is always to get to know the market (there is just too much choice), narrow down what you actually want, and then try to understand what might work for you. And then buy the best you possibly can (sales and markdowns can really help, hence the value of know the market), because a good sleeping bag is an investment.

 

[Sparky750]

Watching this with interest as I'm currently looking for a hammock sleeping system, the best I've found right now is the uk hammocks top quilt and underquilt but at £300ish I'm scared

 

[Sparky750]

I've taken a punt on one of these

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/201...37.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.261.bdmofi

If it's not that great for £50 it should at least work well as a suplement to my current sleeping bag until I decide on something better

 

[Andy BB]

It's funny how people misread temp ratings. The Thor bag I mentioned has a comfort rating per the website of -5F/-15C. They then go on to give "Limit of Comfort" ratings of -9F/-23C and Extreme of -50F/-46C.

Limit of Comfort? Really? What on earth does that mean! I understand Comfort. I have described Comfort, to me, being able to sleep through the night, warm. Anything less than that is Not Comfort, and unacceptable for a good night's sleep. I have shivered through too many nights to accept anything else. Not only is it uncomfortable (and potentially dangerous), but leaves you knackered the following day.

Now I understand that other people may have different comfort levels - ie the ability to sleep warm. But that doesn't change the comparative ratings between bags on a personal level. For me, that means the Thor bag and the Wiggys Superlight give similar levels of comfort at -15 to -20 C. So, for me, I can expect Wiggys temp ratings to provide a comfortable night's sleep at their rated temp. I.e., for me Wiggys temperature rating is a Comfort rating. Other bags will only provide similar levels at their "Comfort rating", not "Limit of Comfort" or "Extreme". When choosing a bag, you would be ...ill-advised...to expect it to provide a good night's sleep at anything lower than it's comfort rating.

Finally, let's address another "observation" that the comfort aspect of Wiggys bags make them too warm! I'm sorry for stating the obvious to most of you out there, but there are clearly some novices who need a bit of advice. Wiggy bags come with a zip, which you can open if it gets a bit too warm. If it gets really warm, you can unzip it completely and use it as a slightly mis-shaped duvet. Still too warm? Only cover part of you with the opened bag. Still too warm? Take it off completely. Still too warm? Your satnav has taken you to the Sahara by mistake................

 

[Sparky750]

Any pictures of a wiggys bag compressed down? They sound as versatile as the old buffalo system but I'm not sure on size packed, weight doesn't bother me too much I'd rather carry a bit extra and be comfortable (this goes for my belly too ) and not worried about an accident but it's the packed size of some of them. My old issued arctic bag keep me warm in some hellish conditions but was referred to by us as the bouncing bomb for its sheer size.

 

[Old Bones]

Andy - I totally agree with you when you say 'Now I understand that other people may have different comfort levels - ie the ability to sleep warm. But that doesn't change the comparative ratings between bags on a personal level. ',and from your observation, I clearly said that it was the Valandre bag which seemingly came off worse, since the Wiggy bag was performing exactly as you expected, but the Valandre one wasn't much better, when it really should have been.

However, the Thor has an EN rating of minus 15c http://www.valandre.com/sleeping-bags/thor.html, which even by your own experience should be regarded as conservative. As Alpkit https://www.alpkit.com/spotlight/choosing-a-down-sleeping-bag, Western Mountaineering etc point out, the EN rating is a static lab test, and assumes a lower mat rating than is now standard, etc. In essence, its a vaguely useful benchmark, but not a fantastic one.

The whole comfort thing, therefore, is a bit of a kluge. However, the EN system defines the 2 main ratings thus:

Comfort Temperature (T comf)
Lower limit of the comfort range down to which a sleeping bag user with a relaxed posture such as lying on the back is globally in thermal equilibrium and just not feeling cold (related to standard woman and in standard conditions of use).

Limit Temperature (T lim)
Lower limit at which a sleeping bag user with a rolled-up body posture is globally in thermal equilibrium and just not feeling cold (related to standard man and in standard conditions of use).

So the 'comfort temp' (T comf) is basically the temp at which a woman would probably feel comfortable (I must find out what the T limit, etc means in the case of womans bags, since that figure would be a bit different), while the T Limit is where the average bloke would feel comfortable. So the limits are not actually limits (more guide temps), and the 'extreme' rating is usually bunged in by lawyers/marketing department (which one it is depends on the price of the bag), but its the point at which you wont actually die in the bag (if your female), and nothing more.

So, it turns out that (everything else being equal!) that T Limit figure ( minus 23C in the case of the Thor) is actually roughly the temp where you should sleep fine. And you did. What really confuses me is that ME bags have a 'good night sleep' rating, which is a degree or two below the T Limit figure - and its still very difficult to work out why that should be, unless they are fairly confident that their bags ratings are a little on the conservative side.

When choosing a bag, you would be ...ill-advised...to expect it to provide a good night's sleep at anything lower than it's comfort rating.

Totally, and its nailing down which comfort rating, and what that means in an individual's circumstances (mat, persons temp when getting in bag, etc) which makes life a little difficult. However, getting a good bag from a manufacturer you trust (so even if they dont have an EN rating, etc, you trust their judgement) which should do what you expect it to do (and hopefully a little more) is as good as anything. As long as we all sleep well, everything is good.

The problem about looking at sleeping bags is that I now want one of those Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends bags...which is going to be a bit difficult (ok, impossible) to get past my wife!

 

[IC_Rafe]

When choosing a bag, you would be ...ill-advised...to expect it to provide a good night's sleep at anything lower than it's comfort rating.

I know that i can sleep in base layers, comfortably, in a EN rated bag, up to 3-4 degrees C, below the limit rating. I know this works for every EN rated bag. This makes it very easy for me to actually buy a sleeping bag. Aslong as it's EN rated, i know the offset for me.

The rest of your post is just ranting about you not understanding something and praising wiggy up again without any background knowledge, or worse, you do know what comfort and limit and extreme mean, but you're just ignoring it and giving bad information.

 

[Big G]

Please can someone suggest me a really good sleeping bag to go for all year round hammock camping in the uk.

Previously used military bags but would prefer something that packs down a little smaller.

Budget upto the £150 mark.

Many thanks guys

This thread has got way out of hand, and off topic!

Considering the the op first post above, regarding sleeping bag recommendations.

 

[Andy BB]

I know that i can sleep in base layers, comfortably, in a EN rated bag, up to 3-4 degrees C, below the limit rating. I know this works for every EN rated bag. This makes it very easy for me to actually buy a sleeping bag. Aslong as it's EN rated, i know the offset for me.

The rest of your post is just ranting about you not understanding something and praising wiggy up again without any background knowledge, or worse, you do know what comfort and limit and extreme mean, but you're just ignoring it and giving bad information.

Ah - the "ignorant/rant" response! True, I've only had 50+ years sleeping outdoors in all conditions up to -30C or more in Arctic and sub-Arctic conditions, and using way more sleeping bags than I care to remember (particularly the cost element....) I know that I can sleep comfortably on my 10 year old Wiggy Superlight bag (which I keep permanently in a compressed state) at its rated temp in the same way that I can sleep in my Valandre bag (kept fully uncompressed) at it's rated "Comfort" temp, which is why I specifically mentioned comparative testing on a personal basis. I can't claim to have slept in every sleeping bag in the market that you obviously have, based on your comment re all EN rated bags being the same, so I guess I'll have to bow to your greater experience in this matter.....

 

[Andy BB]

Andy - I totally agree with you when you say 'Now I understand that other people may have different comfort levels - ie the ability to sleep warm. But that doesn't change the comparative ratings between bags on a personal level. ',and from your observation, I clearly said that it was the Valandre bag which seemingly came off worse, since the Wiggy bag was performing exactly as you expected, but the Valandre one wasn't much better, when it really should have been.

However, the Thor has an EN rating of minus 15c http://www.valandre.com/sleeping-bags/thor.html, which even by your own experience should be regarded as conservative. As Alpkit https://www.alpkit.com/spotlight/choosing-a-down-sleeping-bag, Western Mountaineering etc point out, the EN rating is a static lab test, and assumes a lower mat rating than is now standard, etc. In essence, its a vaguely useful benchmark, but not a fantastic one.

The whole comfort thing, therefore, is a bit of a kluge. However, the EN system defines the 2 main ratings thus:



So the 'comfort temp' (T comf) is basically the temp at which a woman would probably feel comfortable (I must find out what the T limit, etc means in the case of womans bags, since that figure would be a bit different), while the T Limit is where the average bloke would feel comfortable. So the limits are not actually limits (more guide temps), and the 'extreme' rating is usually bunged in by lawyers/marketing department (which one it is depends on the price of the bag), but its the point at which you wont actually die in the bag (if your female), and nothing more.

So, it turns out that (everything else being equal!) that T Limit figure ( minus 23C in the case of the Thor) is actually roughly the temp where you should sleep fine. And you did. What really confuses me is that ME bags have a 'good night sleep' rating, which is a degree or two below the T Limit figure - and its still very difficult to work out why that should be, unless they are fairly confident that their bags ratings are a little on the conservative side.



Totally, and its nailing down which comfort rating, and what that means in an individual's circumstances (mat, persons temp when getting in bag, etc) which makes life a little difficult. However, getting a good bag from a manufacturer you trust (so even if they dont have an EN rating, etc, you trust their judgement) which should do what you expect it to do (and hopefully a little more) is as good as anything. As long as we all sleep well, everything is good.

The problem about looking at sleeping bags is that I now want one of those Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends bags...which is going to be a bit difficult (ok, impossible) to get past my wife!

Gotta agree with pretty much all of that! One point however is the T-Limit figure. Unlike the T-Comfort rating which is for an average woman sleeping in a relaxed position, the T-Limit rating is for an average man in a curled-up position. Now I don't sleep curled up (or am an average-man-size, for that matter)! Neither am I a copper manikin sleeping in a humidity-controlled environment with no condensation or sweating, with body heat equal across my entire body, as the EN testing specifies. So at best the EN ratings are, as you say, a rough approximation. Which is why personal comparisons between bags for each individual, based on actual experience, is the way to go.

One point of correction is that I would not feel comfortable in my Velandre at -23C (or in my Wiggy Superlite, for that matter). When going into serious sub-zero temps, I will take equipment that gives me a least a 10 degree "cushion". So on last November's trip to Lappland I was expecting temps of around -17C,and took a bag capable down to -40C (which was lucky as the temp dropped to -27C at times -possibly a bit lower as I was sleeping near a lake in the valley, and temp was based on the actual town temp).

One other point that is often overlooked is insulation from the ground. A quality insulated mat - I used an Exped 9 down-filled mattress - will make a huge difference to warmth in the bag.

 

[IC_Rafe]

Ah - the "ignorant/rant" response! True, I've only had 50+ years sleeping outdoors in all conditions up to -30C or more in Arctic and sub-Arctic conditions, and using way more sleeping bags than I care to remember (particularly the cost element....) I know that I can sleep comfortably on my 10 year old Wiggy Superlight bag (which I keep permanently in a compressed state) at its rated temp in the same way that I can sleep in my Valandre bag (kept fully uncompressed) at it's rated "Comfort" temp, which is why I specifically mentioned comparative testing on a personal basis. I can't claim to have slept in every sleeping bag in the market that you obviously have, based on your comment re all EN rated bags being the same, so I guess I'll have to bow to your greater experience in this matter.....

Excuse me, i didn't mean you are ignorant, but that your post makes it sounds like you are, if that makes sense. (i'm not a native english speaker so some of the nuances tend to get away from me). You "rant" about comfort and limit and extreme rating, and how they aren't correct and how it doesn't make sense, then throw that all out of the window when talking about your wiggy bag. Like i said, i'm not saying they are bad bags, not at all. Just that for the weight/bulk, and at about the same cost, you can get better imo. I also didn't say i'm all knowing, just that in my experience, current bags, do the job fine, and are lighter.

The only thing i'd say you're actually ignorant about, is the physics of compressing bags and how that affects the loft. I've seen old forums where wiggy got banned after "discussing" with an physics major, who's job it is to calculate insulative values in aerospace applications. Wiggy's posts were basically: IT WORKS, I SAY SO. The physicist's posts were explaining, with physics, why his claims are ridiculous and Wiggy responded by just starting to insult the guy.

In my experience, the EN rated bags are the same, since they are tested the same. So the same result, is the same result, even if it's in optimal conditions (which is why i always say, if you know the offset for you, that's the same for all EN rated bags). My -15C bag, my 5C bag, my 8C lightweight bag, they all perform the same way, at about 3-4 degrees below the limit rating which is comfortable for me.

Again, sorry if i insulted you, that was not my meaning and i can see how it may have come over as insulting. If you can give me a good reason why it works, i will always review what i know, and compare it to new data and admit it if i'm wrong. I just haven't seen anything sofar which would say that Wiggy's claim is right. (Other than his bags just don't compress worth anything, and that's why the loft isn't damaged, because they just don't compress).

 

[Andy BB]

Fair enough. And I'll try to answer your question in two ways - pragmatically based on my own experiences, and also on the differences between Wiggy bags and their competitor (as far as I can that is - I'm no insulation guru!). One question though - have you owned a Wiggys bag? If not, how can you possibly say you can do better, particularly given the price point, lifetime guarantee on loft and build? Have you ever spoken to any actual Wiggy bag users? I'm guessing not...

Pragmatically, first. I've owned and used sleeping bags for well over 50 years, from the cheapest nylon bags to the Army bags to the top-name brands using both down and artificial. Also used, and still have somewhere, the Buffalo fibre-pile bags and their predecessor from Survival Aids (which, if no Wiggy bags available, would be my second choice for their long-term practicality) I've used and carried them in tents, hot tents, cold tents, with tent floor and without tent floor, yachts, motor boats, motorcycles, bikes, bivvys, under tarps, inside Jervenbags in the snow, and on their own. Temps ranging from +40C to -30C or lower. I've used them clean and dirty, wet and dry, muddy. I've tried with varying success to wash, clean and dry them. So I think it would be fair to say I'm reasonably experienced in the practical use and abilities of sleeping bags. Which makes it easier to give unbiased comment on their respective strengths and weaknesses from a practical perspective, rather than a theoretical one. And lets face it, a theoretical sleeping bag won't keep you warm in the Arctic.......................

I have three Wiggy bags - a Superlite, the Over-bag which doubles as both a warmer weather bag (in my case that means +5c) in its own right as well as zipping seamlessly over the other bags in his range, and an Ultima Thule boat-foot bag. The oldest two are 10 years old, the Ulitima Thule around 2 years old. I keep them all in their stuff sacs, compressed as much as I can. I wash them frequently after every couple of trips, or after every long trip of over 5 days. (although the Ultima Thule is too big to comfortably wash in my washing machine at home, so I'll take it to the launderette). The loft of all my bags has remained constant when clean despite such treatment for 10 years to date, and their effectiveness at their rated temp has remained constant. Similarly there has been no failure of zips (not too surprising as they are YKK 10s), seams, stitching etc. In short, no way I can activate Wiggy's lifetime warranty. Yet I can say with absolute confidence based on experience that none of the other bags I've used and owned can replicate those qualities. You can tell me till you're blue in the face that theoretically I cannot compress my Wiggy bags for long periods of time and still retain loft. The simple fact is that I can and do! I think that covers the pragmatic side.

Technical side (please bear in mind I'm no fabric or insulation specialist or chemist etc etc) However, here goes, as I understand it. No doubt I'll get the technicalities wrong and Wiggy will send me a rude email! Most artificial bag insulations are made of chopped strand mat, meaning that they have to have constraints (baffles) to stop the filling moving around, or other non-insulating binders. Secondly, baffles leave cold spots at the baffle edge. The chopped strand mat doesn't stand up too well to repeated compression or washing, breaking down into its component strands over a period of time (and bang goes the loft). But its very cheap. Wiggy bags start off with Climashield, a continuous filament fibre woven together in some sort of unique manner (don't ask me how). The fibres are also apparently individually coated with silicon, which tops water absorption, and apparently has a slight water-repellent factor. However, the apparent unique feature with Wiggy bags is their proprietary process of laminating the Climashield to the bag fabric, the result of which is Lamilite. Only Wiggy bags use lamilite or this method of construction. The end result are bags without baffles that stand up to repeated washing and compressing without damage. Bearing in mind he manufactures and sells thousands of bags a year(and has done for several decades) in the most litigious country in the world purely via word of mouth and his website, he seems to be confident in the abilities of his kit, and particularly his lifetime guarantee for loss of loft or material failure. And there is NO other manufacturer I the world who will come anywhere close to matching this guarantee. Try writing to any other manufacturer and asking if they will. I will personally buy, and send you, a new Wiggys bag of your choice if you can get them to agree to match Wiggys guarantee!

 

[Old Bones]

This thread has got way out of hand, and off topic!

Considering the the op first post above, regarding sleeping bag recommendations.

Sorry! One of the problems with talking about sleeping bags is that everyone tends to end up talking about what they like...

OK - pretty much what I said before, but with some proviso's. Firstly, since I've never slept in a hammock in my life, I've no real idea if a normal sleeping bag works, so there's that. Next, a sleeping bag that might be great for the summer isn't going to cut it in the depths of winter - and that might be a problem if you want one bag for all year round. On the other hand, a decent 3-4 season bag might be fine for colder weather, with a quilt for summer, and then used as a top up for winter.

Alas, Alpkit have sold out of their 3-4 season bags at the moment 9they are getting some 800's in, and still have the 900's in stock), but obviously there are decent synthetic bags for less than £150 around from ME, MH and Snugpak. They will be more bulky than down, but will be cheaper, and still probably pack up smaller than a military bag.

Always worth looking at bargain threads on this site and Outdoors magic - might be a decent bag that someone is selling off at a good price.

 

[Leshy]

....I will personally buy, and send you, a new Wiggys bag of your choice if you can get them to agree to match Wiggys guarantee!

... Now that might come back and bite you in the proverbial....

 

[Sparky750]

Fair enough. And I'll try to answer your question in two ways - pragmatically based on my own experiences, and also on the differences between Wiggy bags and their competitor (as far as I can that is - I'm no insulation guru!). One question though - have you owned a Wiggys bag? If not, how can you possibly say you can do better, particularly given the price point, lifetime guarantee on loft and build? Have you ever spoken to any actual Wiggy bag users? I'm guessing not...

Pragmatically, first. I've owned and used sleeping bags for well over 50 years, from the cheapest nylon bags to the Army bags to the top-name brands using both down and artificial. Also used, and still have somewhere, the Buffalo fibre-pile bags and their predecessor from Survival Aids (which, if no Wiggy bags available, would be my second choice for their long-term practicality) I've used and carried them in tents, hot tents, cold tents, with tent floor and without tent floor, yachts, motor boats, motorcycles, bikes, bivvys, under tarps, inside Jervenbags in the snow, and on their own. Temps ranging from +40C to -30C or lower. I've used them clean and dirty, wet and dry, muddy. I've tried with varying success to wash, clean and dry them. So I think it would be fair to say I'm reasonably experienced in the practical use and abilities of sleeping bags. Which makes it easier to give unbiased comment on their respective strengths and weaknesses from a practical perspective, rather than a theoretical one. And lets face it, a theoretical sleeping bag won't keep you warm in the Arctic.......................

I have three Wiggy bags - a Superlite, the Over-bag which doubles as both a warmer weather bag (in my case that means +5c) in its own right as well as zipping seamlessly over the other bags in his range, and an Ultima Thule boat-foot bag. The oldest two are 10 years old, the Ulitima Thule around 2 years old. I keep them all in their stuff sacs, compressed as much as I can. I wash them frequently after every couple of trips, or after every long trip of over 5 days. (although the Ultima Thule is too big to comfortably wash in my washing machine at home, so I'll take it to the launderette). The loft of all my bags has remained constant when clean despite such treatment for 10 years to date, and their effectiveness at their rated temp has remained constant. Similarly there has been no failure of zips (not too surprising as they are YKK 10s), seams, stitching etc. In short, no way I can activate Wiggy's lifetime warranty. Yet I can say with absolute confidence based on experience that none of the other bags I've used and owned can replicate those qualities. You can tell me till you're blue in the face that theoretically I cannot compress my Wiggy bags for long periods of time and still retain loft. The simple fact is that I can and do! I think that covers the pragmatic side.

Technical side (please bear in mind I'm no fabric or insulation specialist or chemist etc etc) However, here goes, as I understand it. No doubt I'll get the technicalities wrong and Wiggy will send me a rude email! Most artificial bag insulations are made of chopped strand mat, meaning that they have to have constraints (baffles) to stop the filling moving around, or other non-insulating binders. Secondly, baffles leave cold spots at the baffle edge. The chopped strand mat doesn't stand up too well to repeated compression or washing, breaking down into its component strands over a period of time (and bang goes the loft). But its very cheap. Wiggy bags start off with Climashield, a continuous filament fibre woven together in some sort of unique manner (don't ask me how). The fibres are also apparently individually coated with silicon, which tops water absorption, and apparently has a slight water-repellent factor. However, the apparent unique feature with Wiggy bags is their proprietary process of laminating the Climashield to the bag fabric, the result of which is Lamilite. Only Wiggy bags use lamilite or this method of construction. The end result are bags without baffles that stand up to repeated washing and compressing without damage. Bearing in mind he manufactures and sells thousands of bags a year(and has done for several decades) in the most litigious country in the world purely via word of mouth and his website, he seems to be confident in the abilities of his kit, and particularly his lifetime guarantee for loss of loft or material failure. And there is NO other manufacturer I the world who will come anywhere close to matching this guarantee. Try writing to any other manufacturer and asking if they will. I will personally buy, and send you, a new Wiggys bag of your choice if you can get them to agree to match Wiggys guarantee!

Any chance you have the dimensions of your wiggys bag compressed down? I'm looking at them, weight isn't a big issue for me but packable size is sometimes, I know they'll be bigger than the latest greatest down but how much? For the robustness it may well be a price worth paying.

 

[Andy BB]

To be honest, they don't pack down small, and when you do haul on the straps of the supplied compression sacks for all you're worth, they tend to end up almost cylindrical! My lightest bag - the overbag, compresses down to about the size of a basket-ball, the other ones significantly bigger. I suppose it would be possible to compress them in a cylindrical manner to fit underneath or on top of a rucksack, but I've not tried it myself.