Skin problems caused by working with old wood and steel

[humblebumble]

Wasn't sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here, as I suggest any possible solutions may come from the realm of craft rather than medicine.

Here's the issue.

In the weaving room at my college, we have about 50 old looms. Very old looms, some of the frames are 200 years old. The metal is also old and less than clean. The wood hasn't been varnished or oiled in over 20 years I think and the metal parts are dry and dirty and I believe all covered in fine rust particles and the remains of dried out grease. Not to mention the slut's wool (oil with fibre, for those unfamiliar with the term) on the dobby mechanisms.

This isn't a big problem for me, though I did notice during the summer when I was employed to carry out repair and maintenance work on the looms that when working with the metal parts I had to wash my hands many times every day as they'd become black quite quickly. By the end of the day my hands would be far too dry and my eyes also were feeling a little dry.

Some of the girls though have excema or other skin conditions, which I believe is exacerbated by working on the looms. They certainly believe so, and I see no reason to doubt them.

It's also worth bearing in mind that major work was done on the roof about 8 years ago, during which the incompetent, cavalier and disrespectful people doing the work never put dust cloths on any of the looms despite being requested to do so, which coincidentally caused the breakdown of the majority of the computerised looms. There was also a flood around about the same time when a different group of incompetent workmen left the roof uncovered during a rainstorm, this has caused many iron and steel parts to get rusty. Most of them were saved and are still in use, but there are rust particles on everything, and I haven't yet figured out a creative and ingenious way of cleaning everything within the budget alloted to the weave department, as it would be a Big Job.

Anyway, all that. But to bring it down to things that could be done to make life better in the short term. I am going to start wiping down everything i use with a damp rag to catch old dust and ming. But is there anything I can do for the wood? Is it possible that using 50-200 year old looms which haven't received any wood conditioning could aggravate a person's excema? If so, is there anything to be done about it?

Andrew

 

[tartanferret]

If its college mate, tell your superiors ! It's outdated, needs cleaning !

Some companies take the biscuit, funded foundations cannot ! bad press for them ? kick up a stink!!!

 

[Toddy]

Firstly, it might actually be old insecticide.
My oldest spinning wheel dated to c1746 had woodworm in one leg and in the screw adjustment on the mother of all. The gentleman who repaired it over thirty years ago used an organophosphate anti woodworm stuff on it. The mess my hands were in had to be seen to be believed. Cracked open weeping itchy sores at every crease and nail edge absolutely horrid. I was devastated too that I had this wonderful wheel and I couldn't use it.
Husband had a wee thought, had a discussion with my joiner of an Uncle, and then set about the whole thing with Fairy Liquid and warm water, wearing rubber gloves and rags that he threw away, he scoured the whole thing. Dried it carefully and then he WD40'd the metal bits and beeswax and turpentined (real stuff) all of the wood I have never had another bit of bother with the wheel.

Your old looms might do very well on the same treatment. I think I'd just use the oil that's used on the wool to stop it fluffing and shedding( I just know it as the dressing) on the metal reeds though.
If the wool that was used on them was used in the grease the old sheep fleeces were dipped in those damned organophosphates too It kills the pests, but it's horrible stuff on our skins.

The old wooden looms shouldn't have had anything done to them apart from the anti woodworm treatment that I can think of Andy. They were meant to be used by handloom weavers, they didn't use woods like Makori and such like for them, so allergic reactions to the wood itself isn't something I'd expect.

Depending on what the muck was that came down out of the ceiling (please not asbestos, because that is as itchy as get out apart from being really, really, really bad news for the respitory system) you could be looking at fire retardant or anti vermin powder. The former is usually borax or alum, while the latter...........

You need danger money to tackle this one I think.

atb,
Mary

 

[Expat]

The dust from the raw materials will also cause skin/respiratory problems...
Had a few friends worked in the mills of Blackwoods as well as B.M.K. (remember the dancing lamb..??)
until they were closed down a while back...

 

[Mesquite]

You need danger money to tackle this one I think.

You also need proper PPE for jobs like that

 

[Toddy]

You also need proper PPE for jobs like that

Yeah no money to spare there though.

I'm hoping that EdS sees this thread; might give him a pm if he doesn't reply to it.

M

 

[humblebumble]

thank you all

mr ferret: I am in final year and the technician is retiring next year. I have so far been the main person that's been pushing through changes. I had all the old cotton tie up cord replaced with Swedish Texsolv (fantastic stuff) and spent so much time complaining about the state of the place that they hired me to sort it out. So, chances are I'll be hired to sort the mess out next year. This stuff takes time, college doesn't make decisions quickly, but I'm trying to think of cheap ways of turning the place around and preparing it for the next 10 years of change. There is a lot of built up entropy to deal with.

Mary: I doubt the more horrible possibilities are likely, or else more people would be having problems. This is just people with pre-existing conditions. I was basically trying to find out if wood should be treated on a semi-regular (like, every ten years or so) basis or not. I don't really know. The woodworm thing might be a possible issue, if this place got worm it'd rip through it like nobodies business. But it's not hurt me. I think maybe it's more an issue of loose dust sooking up oil from the skin. In which case this is simple a case of piled-up entropy manifesting itself.

Big Jobs

 

[humblebumble]

so, now veering away from the DIY topic, what could cause someone's excema to flair up in relation to work?

 

[Toddy]

How about just good old fashioned housekeeping ? Hoover every blooming corner of the looms above, below and around them, and then scrub them down with the detergent ? Dry off and then treat the wood just as you would do good real wood furniture ? The newer pieces will probably have been varnished so the scrub and dry would just do them a lot of good too.
I'd still clean off the metal work with the WD40 type stuff. It cleans off the rust particles, and leaves a protective coat on the metal, and it's not something that will damage the reeds or the rotator/catch mechanisms. Somewhere I have an old receipt for loom oil and it was whale oil that they were using

You're most likely right that it's just an accumulation of assorted dirts and dust and fibre particles....on that note, one of my neighbours has exczema (sp?) and she's allergic to the creams with lanolin in them, so it might be worth the girls having a think about what exacerbates their problems normally too.
The only problems I ever found working with old looms were grey hands from the oils and rust particles until I got them cleared out and working well. Scrubbed raw trying to get them clean enough to warp up clean yarn though

If the technician has had all those disasters to deal with, and so many looms to keep in order then he's unlikely to have had time for just scrubbing them down.

Good on you tackling it though
You could make it part of the course work ....care and maintainance of equipment (and problems when they aren't).....and get everyone to clean the machinery they use when they're finished ? Help keep on top of things that don't need technical savvy to fix ?

atb,
Mary

 

[humblebumble]

That is a very good idea Mary.

I have already been teaching all the 1st and 2nd years how to oil the moving parts (we were never shown). I think we need more than one oil can though. Last year I got a little water on my beater bar by accident and realised that what I had assumed was the built up patina of time was in fact just hand-dirt (actually, that is the built up patina of time now i think about it). So I got a sponge and a bucket and in an hour turned the handled parts from black to almost white. I like cleaning really dirty things.

 

[Toddy]

Good point.........the old Hattersley looms were standards, and there are still instructions for the care and maintenance of them around. Might give you a few ideas ? What about the Paisley museum ? they have a lot of stuff there and might well have someone who's read up on it ?
My other suggestion would be to contact Summerlee and see if you can get hold of one of their mechanical engineers. He'll be well experienced in just what kinds of oils and greases would be best to use, I'd have thought. They manage to keep those old belt driven machine shops working.
I could as the 90 year old Uncle ? he might know or have some practical suggestions. It was he who told me just to scrub wood and dry it carefully 'cos it gets dirty just like everything else, and too many folks just varnish over the dirt and then complain that it wasn't good varnish

cheers,
M

 

[humblebumble]

aaaah, these aren't hattersley's. These are 20th century George Wood Dobbies, and a slightly motley collection of much older looms, which date back to the founding of the College back in the days of lore. The dobby boxes I think are generally more modern, but the frames of the looms and the beaters are clearly very old. their stye of make and workmanship is clearly pre-war and the sheer amount of wear on the shuttle boxes indicates their age. Also, each of the older narrow looms is not exactly the same, which indicates they were craftsman made rather than industrially made or machines in any way. Thus parts are not necessarily interchangeable, which is a bit of a nightmare when you're trying to fix them up. The George Woods, on the other hand, are very regular and very reliable. I have one myself at home and it's a wonderful loom. Mine is a counter-balance with a wide drum for the warp, but the beater assembly is exactly the same as that found at college.

My loom, of course, is simply the best, as it receives the kind of tender care and ministrations that any good loom would be happy to receive. It rewards me with efficient and reliable shuttling. The college looms on the other hand are rather less individually treated and respond with the bad behaviour one would expect from a neglected or ignored dog.

 

[Toddy]

Well then there should be manuals available on the care and maintenance of the dobby looms Should probably be able to find the original specs too for the spares.
I used to think every loom should have a special compartment built on where it's paper work and records should be kept, I'm still thinking it's a good idea, tbh. With care they last for such a long time, and at least that way any spares needed have a hope of being recognised or remade to match.

You're right about the care and attention too; and that's not always taught at college, and it should be. A poor craftsman blames his tools, but if he (she) doesn't care for them then it's their own damned fault the tools don't work properly.

I think you could probably find yourself with a short list of cleaning/ oiling materials that would work on all of the looms.
A detergent that works (fairy liquid is what's used to clean seabirds and mammals caught in oil spills. I admit I'm biased, I don't break out in a rash using it and I do with Ecover, Persil, Sqeezy, etc., and it's effective.)
Something like WD40 to remove and clean off rust from the metal.
An oil/grease for moving parts (2stroke is surprisingly effective on a spinning wheel demo with the Galgael and the wheel was as dry as a desert; Ian appeared with a wee bottle of something oilyish and set about the wheel. It ran like a sweetie ) Kemtex might have a suggestion ? and something to nourish the woodwork and discourage insect attack (real turpentine and beeswax seems to work without causing any allergies), though a good varnish would probably do fine.

You're going to be a busy man

M

 

[stuart f]

Hi Humblebumble, regarding the itchy skin issue, i worked in the knitwear industry for 15 years and i used to get rashes on my arms, the cause was all the yarn dust that floats about,plus when handling cones of yarn, which were greasy(the Hawick term for yarn which had not yet been scoured = washed) i hated the greasy feeling on my hands, if left on for awhile the itch used to kick in. I worked for Lyle and Scott, Barbour knitwear, Barrie knitwear, luckily i was on the clean side of the production, so i was'nt subjected to the greasy side of things to often.

Its amazing how much fibre floats about in the air, i swore that i had breathed in that much yarn fibre,i was convinced, that one day i would pass wind and there would be a pullover lying at my feet .

Cheers Stuart.

 

[Toddy]

Stuart that's a classic

M

 

[xylaria]

so, now veering away from the DIY topic, what could cause someone's excema to flair up in relation to work?

Anything, the more powdery something is the more likely a culprit.
Oiling the wooden stuff with linseed, the metal with wd40 and a good old thorough vacuuming might work to remove a lot of airborne issues.

I worked in a casino which was getting refurbished. the week they took out the suspended ceiling, most the staff got lumps rashes wheezing and generally itchy. It was just dust, more over the critters living it, dust mites and human fleas and crickey knows what ever else. We had costumers getting asthma attacks.

 

[humblebumble]

Ahh, yes, I know the term greasy. Also, grey goods, greige, loom-state cloth. I worked in Hawick briefly, but only as a shopworker in a wee offy. I've more recently worked in Peebles at Robert Noble over the summer as the design department's dogsbody, measuring tiny pieces of yarn to a sub-millimetre scale and counting ends and picks under a piece glass, as well as trying to differentiate between apparently identical blues.

I actually like the greasy yarn and fabric myself, I was recently having a go at making shaggy cloak fabric (which I'd read about vaguely from ancient Icelandic trade regulations) with raw fleece (for the pile). Quick wash in warm water to get out the mud and so on. I think it's actually good for my hands. I think it's all the rest of the clat that gets at me.

I was moving looms about today and I can feel that slight tightness in my airways.

You can probably guess where I am.

do you think it would help if those allergic to the greasy good were to wear gloves perhaps?

Andrew

 

[humblebumble]

oh, it says where i am on the top of my post. so you don't have to guess. silly me

 

[spandit]

Have you thought about wearing barrier cream on your hands? It makes them much easier to clean afterwards

WD40 is a solvent (and a water dispersant, hence the name). Good for cleaning but not so good for anything else - it's not an especially good lubricant. ACF50 is great for surface protection or could you use engine lacquer?

 

[Epona]

Arsenic compounds were used to treat woodworm in the early 20thC, followed by DDT later... Might be worth testing for those chemicals also?