shelter building
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I agree with Leon...
I have nowhere to build a shelter
so it would seem wasteful of natural resources to make any type of shelter that was not going to be used for at least one night.
I understand the theory and British Reds post was most informative.
Any suggestions?
I have nowhere to build a shelter
so it would seem wasteful of natural resources to make any type of shelter that was not going to be used for at least one night.I understand the theory and British Reds post was most informative.
Any suggestions?
Wayland said:
Another great blast from the past thread Wayland - You have really kick started this forum now.
One skill I have tried to practice is looking for improveable natural shelters when I'm out. It is in theory much more efficient than building one and training your eye is not only a useful skill (although when combined with mushroom hunting and looking for woodpeckers you will probably fall over 
) but it gets your mind working too.
If you're intersted I made a post about it a few months ago here - Shelters in Pinewoods
) but it gets your mind working too.If you're intersted I made a post about it a few months ago here - Shelters in Pinewoods
Fire Starter said:
It doesn't take much. I just used the search function and started at the other end.
This Forum is full of good stuff already, people just need reminding occasionally.
In our woods some type of fungus disease has killed a lot of the red oaks. One of the symptoms is that the bark of the trees scales off in large sheets. On our last outing we collected a huge pile of red oak bark slabs. The inside of the slabs are covered with a black tar like substance I assume is sap and fungus. We built a stout frame work of eastern red cedar poles lashed together with cordage made from wysteria vines and vine bark. We took advantage of several trees with low forks to support our ridge poles. No amount of weight can tear down that ridge pole short of the pole breaking. We used cedar and pine poles lashed to the ridge pole and support trees and created a three sided shelter. We wove wysteria vines between the poles basket style and covered the entire shelter in overlapping bark slabs. This process was harder than it sounds and we soon learned to bore holes in the top of the slabs and tie them off to the basket framework with vine bark coardage. Properly overlapped they are completely water, snow and wind proof. The design is similar to the Native American bark long house.
Suprisingly this shelter is not very warm. It may be a function of making it to big and the fact it is open on one side. On the next outing I plan to cover the open side and add a small open front shelter for cooking and outdoor activities. An indoor hearth and fire hole in the roof is planned as well. We spent a lot of time on this shelter and with care it could certainly last many seasons and make a good addition to our primitive camp.
Quick temporary shelters can be covered in bark slabs if they are available. We are already talking about a small bark teepee with bark sides covered in pine and laurel boughs and leaf debris. The inside would be fireproof and the debris and boughs would help insulate it. The ability to build a fire inside the shelter safely would really help keep us warm as the temps here are dipping fast as the winter progresses.
Suprisingly this shelter is not very warm. It may be a function of making it to big and the fact it is open on one side. On the next outing I plan to cover the open side and add a small open front shelter for cooking and outdoor activities. An indoor hearth and fire hole in the roof is planned as well. We spent a lot of time on this shelter and with care it could certainly last many seasons and make a good addition to our primitive camp.
Quick temporary shelters can be covered in bark slabs if they are available. We are already talking about a small bark teepee with bark sides covered in pine and laurel boughs and leaf debris. The inside would be fireproof and the debris and boughs would help insulate it. The ability to build a fire inside the shelter safely would really help keep us warm as the temps here are dipping fast as the winter progresses.
That could be warmed up a lot with a leaf litter or rough thatch cover. It sounds like air flow is the only problem, great idea.
Wayland said:
Thanks for the tip, It will help with my navigation of the site. I do think its a pity no one has added to the post for nearly two years though
This is part of the problem. good threads like this get forgotten because many people just browse the new posts or the most recent ones in each forum.
Once the most active members have posted a few time the threads slip into obscurity, not because they are without value but because people move on.
Revisiting them after a while brings in new voices and ideas which is great.
Once the most active members have posted a few time the threads slip into obscurity, not because they are without value but because people move on.
Revisiting them after a while brings in new voices and ideas which is great.
i like a 60 degree or so angle for my shelter, all the ones i have built with more shallow angles have leaked a lot during the rain. if i need to build one in the future it will be 60 degrees. as a kicker i carr one of those very thin painters drop cloths, the plastic is very thin and hard to open, but it will give you a lot of water proof area, spreading this over your shelter will tincreas the rain impermiability greatly and they fit in my survivfal pouch with a sortsmans blanket and a 2 space blankets.
what has greatly intregued me is the mors kochanski super shelter, i have not built one yet, but have read mors book, and am ver interested.
alex
what has greatly intregued me is the mors kochanski super shelter, i have not built one yet, but have read mors book, and am ver interested.
alex
S
Selous
Guest
Hi, Merry Christmas.
People keep talking of leaf debris. In my experience it doesn't work against rain at all. It just acts like a sponge. You might stay dry for the first hour of rain, but by then the stuff is soaked and for every drop of rain that lands on top, a drop falls through underneath!
When I were nobbut a lad, I build a fantastic shelter and thatched it with a couple of bales of hay. It was brilliant, until it rained. Then it was like sheltering inside... a very wet thing. Very wet. And it stayed wet long after the rain stopped.
I'm lucky: I have access to a bit of neglected valley land in Northumberland, so I can experiment. Dead bracken is good, so long as you use it properly. You need to gather it in bundles, with the stalks all pointing in the same direction. If you think it is going to rain, shake it to get rid of the old leaves. They're really good for bulk, and will build a quick roof, good insulation etc, but like leaf litter, just get wet, then drip. Then lay the bracken stalk bundles on the roof, with the stalks pointing up and down, so water runs down the stalks. You have to use a huge amount to get a proper thatch: a whole armful is just placed on, as it is, and don't spread it out. But it works very well, even in very wet weather. And it's easy to gather, though bracken cuts are pretty horrid. Wear old leather gloves. Cheap gardening gloves are good. It doesn't last long: it rots to pretty well nothing in a few weeks.
Reeds are the best: we have a marshy valley bottom with forests of reeds. They don't grow very tall, and they're not easy to harvest, but they have a sort of shiny outer, and shed water like fury, and they don't rot like bracken. I've thatched shelters with this stuff and it seems to last indefinitely.
The idea is to have dense cover of lines of something: stalks of bracken, thin sticks, reeds, whatever, all pointing down. Then the rain falls on the first layer and runs down it, surface tension and all that, before being joined by more rain from the sky, and getting so large it drips down to the next layer, where it runs down again, a few inches down the stalk, before getting too large again... and if you have, in effecty ten layers or so, it never gets through, but goes to the ground.
As someone said, the angle is very important. There really is no such thing as water-proof cover, the best you can get is stuff that doesn't absorb water, like reeds, and will shed water at an angle. A flat roof made of genuine commercial thatch will eventually leak. It really has to be at least 50 degrees before it will shed water and this tends to mean a small, steep shelter. But dry.
Regards
People keep talking of leaf debris. In my experience it doesn't work against rain at all. It just acts like a sponge. You might stay dry for the first hour of rain, but by then the stuff is soaked and for every drop of rain that lands on top, a drop falls through underneath!
When I were nobbut a lad, I build a fantastic shelter and thatched it with a couple of bales of hay. It was brilliant, until it rained. Then it was like sheltering inside... a very wet thing. Very wet. And it stayed wet long after the rain stopped.
I'm lucky: I have access to a bit of neglected valley land in Northumberland, so I can experiment. Dead bracken is good, so long as you use it properly. You need to gather it in bundles, with the stalks all pointing in the same direction. If you think it is going to rain, shake it to get rid of the old leaves. They're really good for bulk, and will build a quick roof, good insulation etc, but like leaf litter, just get wet, then drip. Then lay the bracken stalk bundles on the roof, with the stalks pointing up and down, so water runs down the stalks. You have to use a huge amount to get a proper thatch: a whole armful is just placed on, as it is, and don't spread it out. But it works very well, even in very wet weather. And it's easy to gather, though bracken cuts are pretty horrid. Wear old leather gloves. Cheap gardening gloves are good. It doesn't last long: it rots to pretty well nothing in a few weeks.
Reeds are the best: we have a marshy valley bottom with forests of reeds. They don't grow very tall, and they're not easy to harvest, but they have a sort of shiny outer, and shed water like fury, and they don't rot like bracken. I've thatched shelters with this stuff and it seems to last indefinitely.
The idea is to have dense cover of lines of something: stalks of bracken, thin sticks, reeds, whatever, all pointing down. Then the rain falls on the first layer and runs down it, surface tension and all that, before being joined by more rain from the sky, and getting so large it drips down to the next layer, where it runs down again, a few inches down the stalk, before getting too large again... and if you have, in effecty ten layers or so, it never gets through, but goes to the ground.
As someone said, the angle is very important. There really is no such thing as water-proof cover, the best you can get is stuff that doesn't absorb water, like reeds, and will shed water at an angle. A flat roof made of genuine commercial thatch will eventually leak. It really has to be at least 50 degrees before it will shed water and this tends to mean a small, steep shelter. But dry.
Regards
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