Scottish camping By-law have your say

[demographic]

I'm against any camping bans on common land.

No sooner people get a freedom and then someone takes it away and I'm sick of that in the UK as it is.

 

[avalon]

maybe, a small charge to enter all national parks would be a bit of a deterrent, or would at least help to fund policing and park maintenance. It works here in Australia.

 

[Paul_B]

And then those living just out of national parks visiting friends would be paying it all the time. Kind of like those living out of the congestion charge area in London except without the public transport alternative. Nice idea, another tax for the locals! Don't tell Gordon Brown whatever you do he has plenty of his own stealth tax ideas. Sorry no politics and besides I'm sure SNP will take the labour way sooner or later on taxes. Ooops, politics again.

Why should we pay for our countryside when we don't cause the damage? The problem is that our national parks aren't really like other country's national parks in that they are not wilderness in the true sense that they are in USA, Canada, Australia, etc. The point that is the furthest away from signs of human development in Great Britain is only 7 miles according to Ordnance Survey! That puts it into perspective that our national parks (Scotland, England and Wales) are living landscapes for locals.As such you can't expect fees for them to live in their homes. On top of that a lot of so called wild areas are easy to get to from cities and towns. Take the peak district for example (I know south of the border) it is in a triangle formed by Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham, plus numerous other towns and cities around and within that triangle. Now correct me if I'm wrong but that means a large proportion of the English population will be close enough to visit that NP in a day. We are a small island and we have to manage with what we have, namely too many neds!

 

[avalon]

The alternative then, would be to do nothing and keep whinging about it. Very British and one of the reasons I left the UK.

 

[Paul_B]

I'm not whinging as I couldn't give a... I never really want to camp in the areas near roads and I doubt they'll go and mess up the places I go to wild camp. Selfish I suppose but at the end of the day banning camping in that area won't make a big deal to most of us in the long term. I think it is kind of scaremongering to say its the thin end of the wedge. The ban is focussed on a problem area which is probably quite a good thing. Bans can be lifted of course, it is not irreversible.

Avalon - They aren't doing nothing, they are banning it, that is something and is likely to stop it in that way.

 

[avalon]

I suppose, then, a ban in that area and other areas with similar problems would probably be a good thing and a deterrent to people who are too lazy to get out of their cars and go off the beaten track.

 

[avalon]

Alternatively, close Scotland, Throw the Scots and everyone else out and let me have it all to myself.

 

[demographic]

Pay a warden to police the area and get his wages from fines paid by the people he catches littering.
Like they do with Parking wardens but rather more popular
All he has to do is do a round every day at 6 am with a digital camera and maybe another later on when they have left and he'll catch pretty much everyone doing it.

Crikey, its not rocket science is it?

 

[locum76]

And then those living just out of national parks visiting friends would be paying it all the time. Kind of like those living out of the congestion charge area in London except without the public transport alternative. Nice idea, another tax for the locals! Don't tell Gordon Brown whatever you do he has plenty of his own stealth tax ideas. Sorry no politics and besides I'm sure SNP will take the labour way sooner or later on taxes. Ooops, politics again.

Or locals could get a free pass, similar to the Skye Bridge system before they scrapped the toll on that.

 

[coln18]

I live on the national park border (The bad lands) and camp up above Millorchray bay all the time, if you ban everyone, you also punish the people who try to do good, every time i go up there i do a sweep of the area and usually take 2 or 3 black bags of rubbish down to the ranger station...

We Scots are lucky to have the right to roam law we do, ask any Englishman who tries to light a fire down south about that....

As pointed out earlier, if we ban wild camping on the Loch, the neds just go elsewhere and then a new local law will suddenly be required there as well, before we know it, we will have a right to roam, but no where to roam cause of bye laws...

In Swedish national parks the rangers often provide firewood and educate the youngsters, this is what is needed here..

I strongly urge everyone to fill in the form in the link to stop the erosion of our rights, it is a slippery slope when it starts...There is no more beautiful thing in life than to have the real freedom to go where one wishes, and of course with this comes a duty to care for the environment..

Colin

 

[demographic]

I live on the national park border (The bad lands) and camp up above Millorchray bay all the time, if you ban everyone, you also punish the people who try to do good, every time i go up there i do a sweep of the area and usually take 2 or 3 black bags of rubbish down to the ranger station...

We Scots are lucky to have the right to roam law we do, ask any Englishman who tries to light a fire down south about that....

As pointed out earlier, if we ban wild camping on the Loch, the neds just go elsewhere and then a new local law will suddenly be required there as well, before we know it, we will have a right to roam, but no where to roam cause of bye laws...

In Swedish national parks the rangers often provide firewood and educate the youngsters, this is what is needed here..

I strongly urge everyone to fill in the form in the link to stop the erosion of our rights, it is a slippery slope when it starts...There is no more beautiful thing in life than to have the real freedom to go where one wishes, and of course with this comes a duty to care for the environment..

Colin

Good post.

 

[Paul_B]

Alternatively, close Scotland, Throw the Scots and everyone else out and let me have it all to myself.

I thought the Southern Scottish Aristocrat Landlords tried that once, although not for you to have to yourself but sheep. Or was that the English landlords I never can remember. Would explain why we're hated in Scotland.

Fortunately the part of Scotland I know best I became a local. I might only have been up there for extended weekends but I was up there so often the bar staff always had a pint on the go th moment we walked through the door. Funny my local was a few hundred miles away from where I lived. A good feeling to walk into a pub, take your coat off and put it over your usual chair to turn around to a nearly completely poured pint of guiness ~(normal not super cool). I might not have been there for 4 months but my chair was empty and the guy knew what I wanted to drink, Who said Scots weren't wlecoming. Of course in 2003 I went up there and kept quiet about the rugby world cup and also didn't need to ask why they were all wearing the all blacks shirt (the only team they thought could beat the English side).

Can I play devils advocate? Why is access to private land a right and not a privelage? If your back garden hasn't been maintained and it is a bit wild can I walk through it? All land is owned by someone.

 

[demographic]

I'm wondering just exactly who is pushing for a camping ban? No vested interests is there? There's usually is someone with a vested interest and a good wedge of cash to promote it at the root of these things and the ones with the most cash have the most access to publicity and therefore more chance of changing laws in their favour.

Or perhaps I'm just cynical...

 

[Shewie]

Would a better control of the parking facilities do the trick ? It's a bit of a simplistic approach but if there's nowhere to overnight park then surely that would help reduce the number of chainsaw wielding party campers ?
I think it was Stooboy who mentioned this when it was brought up a few months ago, some kind of permit system for limited parking areas, then a walk is required to reach designated camping areas.

 

[Chalky723]

We were camping near Lomond the other year (on a campsite in a trailertent so it wasn't me Guv) and really noticed the rubbish, burnt patches and general crap around the areas that people wild camp. If anyone here camps within 30m of a car park then by all means campaign against it, but the filth we saw (continually) was dumped by "casual" campers who didn't want to stay on a proper campsite with rules. If you had to buy a camping permit, maybe this would fund a patrol - but then people would moan about having to pay and the problem would move on.

The other thing we noticed was that if you walked along any part of the West Highland way it wasn't much better - people walking that seem to cr*p within 1m of the path and its bloody disgusting.

People have been treated like grown ups & have failed miserably so why shouldn't it be taken away? I should imagine the locals are pretty fed up with it all & long for it to be banned, as would any of us if it was in our back yard!! Given that they have to live with the problem all year round, shouldn't their feelings and views be given higher priority than people who drift in and out, camp, and don't even pay anything.

I should imagine that Bushcrafters, whilst doing everything responsibly and properly, by definition aren't exactly filling the coffers of the local businesse, whereas families of 6, paying to use a local campsite and eating out every night are a much more welcome presence. This is the sort of camping that people will want to encourage - because it has a more "family" orientated image and appears more "acceptable".

Plus - its hardly "Wild Camping" is it? You can get a pizza delivered 24/7 round most of the Loch Lomond shoreline......

C

 

[johnnytheboy]

The scenario could exist for decent folks that you are driving up from middle england to canoe on Lomond, you get stuck in trafic, get there when its dark you want to fling your tent up at the side of the car and get up and out on the canoe at first light. You would then be breaking a bye-law

I honestly think with these things its the thin end of the wedge, pike anglers sat down and didnt get counted when it came to the consultation document for livebaiting, and what happened, we lost it all, blanket ban nation wide. Not saying thats going to happen but there are known hotspots lomond, lubnaig, lomond. Ban them and they will turn up somewhere else for sure, more than likley 30m from the roadside.

 

[avalon]

I thought the Southern Scottish Aristocrat Landlords tried that once, although not for you to have to yourself but sheep. Or was that the English landlords I never can remember. Would explain why we're hated in Scotland.

It was the English landlords that took the land from the people, or rather the English king's who gave land once used by everyone to his Lords, and not content with that they then did the same throughout the World.

 

[coln18]

Afraid your wrong on this one, it was Scottish land owners who also had vast estates in england, so the scots are every bit as much to blame as the english.

But back on track, the reason will be one of cost and environment, it costs a lot of money and time to clean up other peoples mess and the damage to the local area is shocking.

But once again as i stated earlier the right to roam act was fought for by many people to cement it in law that we can go and do as we wish as long as we are not interfering with other peoples business. Yet a mere 2 years later they are trying to get round it with local by laws. If they do it here in Lomondside, it sets a legal president and whats to stop other land owners from doing the same.

The answer is clearly to educate people and teach them the ways to live in harmony with their surroundings. A national park is for the people and the preservation of that land for future generations, yes we must protect it, but im sure many people into outdoor pursuits started off when they were young wild camping and yes leaving litter around, but they learned and grew up and are now enjoying healthy outdoor lifestyles and not sat on their fat ar** watching Jeremy kyle.... To some poorer city kids Loch Lomondside is maybe the only outdoor area they are ever likely to see, it cannot be taken from them by the thought police.......

Just wait and see how long it will be before the islands are off limits to camping as well, i bet that will just be round the corner too....

 

[Mikey P]

I'm against any camping bans on common land.

No sooner people get a freedom and then someone takes it away and I'm sick of that in the UK as it is.

With rights and freedom come responsibilities and what this sorry episode has shown is that there are still many people in the country who refuse to accept responsibility.

The logical answer would be to remove their rights but you have to identify them first.

I don't know the answer. Perhaps banning wild camping in any area within 5 miles of a publically-owned, metalled road surface might be an idea but, again, how is this enforced?

Personally, I'm tired of the arguments about rights. We have more rights in this country than many others and we're still not happy. We (as a nation) do seem happy to abuse them when we feel like it but complain when they are taken away. We can't have it both ways. Therefore, yes, there will be an erosion of 'rights' and, if it keeps the countryside cleaner and safer for the more responsible amongst us then I would support it.

I guess my point is that responsibility needs to be shown before rights are granted.

 

[Toddy]

I have wandered this land since childhood.
The only places I could not do so were on the MOD lands down the Clyde estuary.
Anywhere else to be somewhere just for a walk wasn't an excuse, it was a reason. Camping for a night or two if you did no damage most folks never minded. Usually offered you fresh water and hinted that the wife had eggs and veggies for sale

Land that sees a lot of people using it needs stewarding in this country. No getting away from it, we have an appalling habit of dirt and destruction.
Look around any area after the school kids have been out for lunch and there's the cleansing dept clearing up after them.
They carry that throw away, knock it down, kick it over attitude into adult life. They go to Loch Lomond and the like and get rat assed maroculous and think they're having a good time

No other situation with so many visitors would have such truly dire infrastructure. Not enough bins, not enough toilets, not enough stewards, not enough signages (and yes, the numpties need the keep off the cliff signs )

Is the answer restrictions ?

No.

It's education in the long term and in the short term more publicity, more rangers, more application of the fines already available; more police and more public infrastructure.
Scream it out in every tabloid in the country, "don't trash, don't cut down trees, bury your sh1t away from watercourses".

And for heavens sake some enterprising businessman with a wee lorry run along the lochside selling bags of sticks. He'd make a wee mint. It doesn't even need to be well seasoned for household use stuff, those idiots'll no' care so long as it burns.

cheers,
Toddy