Question of long term survival

[Mastino]

I've searched the whole forum but I was not able to find a post that imo was posted on this forum.
It was about the impossibility of long term solitary survival and based on the assumption that the only a group could organize tasks in such a way that the calories intake was greater than the consumption. It was a fascinating post and would lik to read it again.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Toddy]

Ah, that was Oblio's post I think........I'll check.

This one too kind of went into the topic.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22434

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Martyn]

There have been a few that toucvh on this, here's more...
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45501
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45890
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45849

 

[BushEd]

It was Ed Wardle's woeful attempts that sparked it; something along the lines of how solitary survival in the North woods is too much for one man...

 

[Mastino]

Thank you all, but still not the one..

Background of my query: in a discussion lately I came up with the hypothesis that our social behaviour, e.g. the need to live in tribal structures, can be originated by the fact that (next to protection) we are unable to find a positive in-/output calories balance when alone and that spreading tasks among a group will lead to individual sustainability in erms of energy. That reminded me of this article and I think it was here.

The 'Alone i the wilderness' case illustrates a reaction that might well be originated by a energy deficit and subsequetly experienced and expressed as a social deficit. Like crying after an adrenaline rush or stress (or puberty); the mind seeks a sad motive because it needs to get rid of the chemicals through tears (thats why they taste bitter).

 

[Galemys]

Mmh interesting topic.
Ishi the Indian and the Japanese soldier held it out for decades on their own but they both lived in more forgiving climates (California and a pacific island) where it was easier to collect calories.
Ishi finally gave in, probably due to the lack of company.

Cheers,

Tom

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Mastino

...It was about the impossibility of long term solitary survival and based on the assumption that the only a group could organize tasks in such a way that the calories intake was greater than the consumption......

The division of labour common in hunter/gatherer societies certainly provides ample evidence of the way it's been done for tens of thousands of years.

Whether or not long term solitary survival is possible, IMO is totally dependent on the individual, the location & time of year.

If the individual knows how to maximise return on effort spent, is a local to the area and can cope with being alone (although I'll ask, can anyone be lonely with an open fire? ) , I reckon they'll stand a good chance of being able to do it.






Kind regards
Mick

 

[Oblio13]

'Flour, oatmeal, barley and rice are all very good in their kind but when men that labour so hard as they do, comes to live upon that only it cannot be called good living.'—William Tomison, Hudson Bay Company's head of operations in North America, in a letter to the HBC's John Ballenden, July 29, 1799, about the need for fat.

 

[helixpteron]

Can't dispute the need for fat!

The excellent quote which Oblio13 posted is timeless in its accuracy, fast forward to the 2007, 4000 mile hiking, Packrafting and skiing trek which Erin McKittrick and her husband Hig made from Seattle to Alaska, on which they consumed a mixture they created to provide the calories they needed.

They named their mix of butter, oats, sugar and cinnamon 'Buttery Goodness'.

 

[The Cumbrian]

Although I've only been to Antarctica in the summer, speaking to the lads who overwintered there, the best thing to keep the cold at bay is a butter and sugar sandwich. Here's the recipe: One slice of bread, half covered by a quarter inch of butter. Sprinkle the butter with sugar, fold the bread over. Eat.

Apparantly the bread and sugar is only used to make the butter more palatable.

 

[nuggets]

feed a cold -starve a fever !!! an old recipe for cold an chills -was butter an sugar -me granny swore by it -maybe coz they did not have any calpol in them days !!!!

 

[Laurentius]

Well maybe it is just me, or the time of the night, or the beer, but I have to ask --- how long term is long term?

1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 70 years? you read your original Robinson Crusoe and that was 28 years.

I have maybe "survived" too long in this urban nightmare we all try to escape from.

Just who are we kidding?

 

[gregs656]

I think this is a chicken or egg senario.

That is, are we social so we eat, or do we eat so we are social. That's not quite right and I can't figure out why, hopefully you get the idea.

Personally, I tend to lean on the side that we probably could feed our selves - if we had to - but we would likely go insane in the process. Saying that, it wouldn't matter if you were the only person about.

I maintain, how ever, that if we had to - many would die - some would survive - fewer would procreate. Some time later, many would survive, some would die, many more would procreate.

To quote a blockbuster hit - 'life finds a way.'

 

[Laurentius]

Well I don't know how many of your heard James Lovelock on the Today programme the other day but er kotzt mich an with his resignation, he is thinking well I am past my three score and ten so what the hell.

I had respect for the guy's science but his ideology nil.

It all goes back to Malthus, it has just been delayed by technology that is all.

The truth is that we cannot escape our destiny.

I'll see you all ten years hence (or not)

 

[nuggets]

I think this is a chicken or egg senario.

That is, are we social so we eat, or do we eat so we are social. That's not quite right and I can't figure out why, hopefully you get the idea.

Personally, I tend to lean on the side that we probably could feed our selves - if we had to - but we would likely go insane in the process. Saying that, it wouldn't matter if you were the only person about.

I maintain, how ever, that if we had to - many would die - some would survive - fewer would procreate. Some time later, many would survive, some would die, many more would procreate.

To quote a blockbuster hit - 'life finds a way.'

Well I don't know how many of your heard James Lovelock on the Today programme the other day but er kotzt mich an with his resignation, he is thinking well I am past my three score and ten so what the hell.

I had respect for the guy's science but his ideology nil.

It all goes back to Malthus, it has just been delayed by technology that is all.

The truth is that we cannot escape our destiny.

I'll see you all ten years hence (or not)

neither of you,s are equipped for today if you want my opinion !!!

 

[Laurentius]

I am not at all sure what you mean by that, but whatever my natural biological span I'll give you a good run for your money.

Let's rendevous in 2020 and we shall see which of us is pushing up daisies or in a nursing home.

The truth is time will only tell.

 

[forrestdweller]

Mmh interesting topic.
Ishi the Indian and the Japanese soldier held it out for decades on their own but they both lived in more forgiving climates (California and a pacific island) where it was easier to collect calories.
Ishi finally gave in, probably due to the lack of company.

Cheers,

Tom

ever read "the last of the nomads" about an aboriginal couple(in their late 60ties) who were the last nomads of the australian desert? the managed for a long time until a severe draugth, when members of their tribe got concerned about their well-being and sent a rescue party to search for them; they were found on a drying-up waterhole and unable to hold out much longer as their were no younger people left to support them...

 

[Chinkapin]

Mastino:

I believe what you are searching for was a thread started by Adi007, Hypothetical Question - living off the land.

Sorry, I don't know how to list the thread. However, if you use the "search" button above, and search "Hypothetical Question - living off the land" It will take you to the thread.

 

[SouthernCross]

ever read "the last of the nomads" about an aboriginal couple(in their late 60ties) who were the last nomads of the australian desert? the managed for a long time until a severe draugth, when members of their tribe got concerned about their well-being and sent a rescue party to search for them; they were found on a drying-up waterhole and unable to hold out much longer as their were no younger people left to support them...

If this is the story I'm thinking of, there is a bit more to the story than that.

IIRC, when both were younger, they were banished from their tribe for failing to follow tribal law.

Both were forced to the fringes of the tribal land, and would not have been in a position to move out of the marginal land they were in. If they were, they would have moved to a different area that had better water & food sources.




Kind regards
Mick

 

[galew]

I don't consider it much of a challenge, as long as you do not become injured. If you set your trap lines good, that means two or three each with 30 to 50 traps, you will be able in most parts of the world to build up as supply of food to last several months. (drying the meat) Once you have the supply built up, even if you then become injured, you will probably be able to heal before running out of food. The only reason that two or more is needed is for the factor of one becoming injured. Of course, it would get very lonely after a while and the stress from that would be detrimental to survival.

I've searched the whole forum but I was not able to find a post that imo was posted on this forum.
It was about the impossibility of long term solitary survival and based on the assumption that the only a group could organize tasks in such a way that the calories intake was greater than the consumption. It was a fascinating post and would lik to read it again.

Thanks in advance.