Plant I.D, Weld, Reseda luteola

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Well, not according to Rose, Harrop, and others - the botanical definition (used by most botanists) is that it had to be here before the Dogger flooded. By that definition Reseda luteola is not native. It was, however, an ancient introduction.

You are free to set your own definition of 'native' of course but I chose the above definition when I started my Ethnobotony of Primitive Britain studies years ago having spoken to a number of very well qualified botanists.
 
I don't think that using the Dogger inundation as a hard/hard line is reasonable. I think the archeophytes are an exception, especially with plants that are within bird flying/defecating distance.
The channel is 22 miles wide, now, but it took a long time to get there.

It's like Ireland and Scotland, we can see each other and folks went back and forth pretty much commuting, and they have done so for thousands of years. France, the low countries, and England used to be the same. People moved not only cultivated plants, but weed seeds too.

Fair enough to say something like snakes aren't native to Ireland, because they aren't there even now, but plants that have successfully thrived here for thousands of years....I reckon that's native.
The definition of an indigenous plant is,
An indigenous plant is native to a given area, meaning it grows there naturally and hasn't been introduced (recently) by humans.

Happy to say that weld is indigenous :)


I have issues with "Primitive Britain".....sorry Broch, but Primitive has connotations that don't sit well. Maybe that's just our different professional backgrounds :dunno:
 
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I used the word 'primitive' very clumsily; perhaps ancient would have been a better term. My specific period of interest is Mesolithic to early Neolithic.

It's not me that has defined 'native' as being before the Dogger flooding; it's a widely accepted line in the sand. The plants that have been brought here since and succeed in the wild are defined as 'naturalised'; it's a very distinct definition in natural history.

How else would you define indigenous? why choose a time of thousands of years? some of the most prolific non-indigenous, non-native, invasive species (plant and mammal) have only been here hundreds of years. Using the Dogger flooding defines a time for all wildlife.

So, sorry, according to botanists, Weld is an ancient introduction and a naturalised wild plant in Britain. But, it doesn't really matter. I was only pointing out that, because of the definition I am using for my plant database based on the botanical definition, I don't have any recorded information to provide to TeeDee on Weld.
 
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Thank you to both - you've both presented a thought process and perspective I was not aware of before regarding - what is considered to be Native or Not. Thanks
 
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To put it all in context, if I'm not over-stretching the point, there are over 3,000 species of vascular plants in Britain – flowering plants, trees, ferns etc. (this doesn't include things like bryophytes).

Of that around 50% are considered native – the rest are classed as either ancient introductions or modern introductions (archaeophytes or neophytes).

Of the 1,456 native species on my database I have, so far, only recorded uses (food, medical, or utilitarian) for 402. Life is too short :)
 
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It's weld. Reseda luteola.

It's one of the trio of native natural dyes that make pretty much any colour.

Blue from Woad
Red from Madder
Yellow from Weld.


They're all strong enough to cross dye properly so you get the entire range of colours; with care :)

Weld seeds prolifically but likes exposed areas where it doesn't face any competition while it's in it's first year.
Second year it goes up like a rocket :D

Pigeons love the first year plants and devour them.

Often found in the tracks of old building sites.

Has anyone got photos of Madder? in different states of Growth - what type locations does it like ? Geographical dispearsal

Same question with Woad please.
 
Field Madder (Sherardia arvensis) is a common arable weed. Prefers light soil but will grow most places south of Scotland.

Wild Madder (Rubia peregrina) is localised mainly southern British coast - prefers rocky environments near the sea

Both native.

Woad (Isatis tinctoria) is not native :)
 

So , and I'm fattening this thread into more of a Dyers chronalogical/geographical timeline type thingy . routes for trading dyes between towns and dyers.

Lincoln Green - Woad & Weld


Coventry Blue.

Coventry blue or "true blue"



Kendal Green


Kendal had an abundance of the natural resources needed to make the cloth: wool from sheep; soap from bracken; plenty of water for washing, fulling and dyeing; fuller’s teasels for raising the nap on the cloth; dye producing plants; and plenty of enterprising people to bring it all together.


1750745688891.png
 

So , and I'm fattening this thread into more of a Dyers chronalogical/geographical timeline type thingy . routes for trading dyes between towns and dyers.

Lincoln Green - Woad & Weld


Coventry Blue.

Coventry blue or "true blue"



Kendal Green


Kendal had an abundance of the natural resources needed to make the cloth: wool from sheep; soap from bracken; plenty of water for washing, fulling and dyeing; fuller’s teasels for raising the nap on the cloth; dye producing plants; and plenty of enterprising people to bring it all together.


View attachment 95882
Please tell us more... I'm on tender hooks!
 
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@Toddy will correct me, but I believe the common Madder (Field Madder) does not produce as intense a red dye as Wild Madder - my point being, you may want to be more specific. There is a third, imported I believe, that is considered the best but I have no experience of using them.
 
OK, Specifically - I am looking for Wild Native plants - Many thanks.
Which I guess means the plants must come from somewhere you have permission to take them from legally.
 
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Madder, woad and weld were such commonly grown dye plants that they've self seeded themselves in some areas and quite happily become (native) indigenous.

Woad stinks like rotting cabbage when it's being turned into dye. It's actually a pretty good herbal plant too, traditionally a wound plant, it's antibacterial and seems to have some anti fungus properties too. Skin infections and the like, but supposedly good for sore throats too....I'm not advising anyone use it internally, I know that it's seems fine on the skin. I used it, it healed a horrible wet seeping scrape, and I have over sensitive skin and react badly to a lot of things.

Weld self seeds and grows on everything from sandy dunes to building sites. It doesn't like to be shaded by other plants when it's in it's first year, but leave it alone someplace open and gravelly and it'll be everywhere there in a year or two.
Again, used for skin irritations, cuts, scrapes, etc., inflammation, etc.,

Madder....well there's the lady's bedstraw which gives colour from it's roots, and I've mentioned it before, but it's a decent-ish rennet replacer. If you don't want to kill a calf, (I'm told a hen can do it too, just it's a matter of scale) then folks looked for a plant alternative. Nettles do it, but the cheese ends up a weird yellowy green sort of unappetising colour, but lady's bedstraw gives that lovely colour that we now fake to make coloured red cheddar :)
Pretty sure they didn't use madder for that though.
Madder was pretty much a dried import from Roman times through to somewhere in the Dark Ages, when we think the Anglo Saxons started growing it again.
I have tried growing it here; no joy, it just does not thrive in our cold and wet.
 
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No, no, no - woad and weld are not native :) - they are ancient introductions - woad quite late (possibly Iron Age). Two species of Madder are native; the third one preferred because of its intensity (I am told) was imported but, to my knowledge, is not found wild in the UK.

Rubia tinctorum - I believe was the imported one and preferred dye producing plant.

The two native species are Field Madder (Sherardia arvensis) and Wild Madder (Rubia peregrina) - both produce a dye but not as intense as R. tinctorum.
 
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Madder, woad and weld were such commonly grown dye plants that they've self seeded themselves in some areas and quite happily become native.

Woad stinks like rotting cabbage when it's being turned into dye. It's actually a pretty good herbal plant too, traditionally a wound plant, it's antibacterial and seems to have some anti fungus properties too. Skin infections and the like, but supposedly good for sore throats too....I'm not advising anyone use it internally, I know that it's seems fine on the skin. I used it, it healed a horrible wet seeping scrape, and I have over sensitive skin and react badly to a lot of things.

Weld self seeds and grows on everything from sandy dunes to building sites. It doesn't like to be shaded by other plants when it's in it's first year, but leave it alone someplace open and gravelly and it'll be everywhere there in a year or two.
Again, used for skin irritations, cuts, scrapes, etc., inflammation, etc.,

Madder....well there's the lady's bedstraw which gives colour from it's roots, and I've mentioned it before, but it's a decent-ish rennet replacer. If you don't want to kill a calf, (I'm told a hen can do it too, just it's a matter of scale) then folks looked for a plant alternative. Nettles do it, but the cheese ends up a weird yellowy green sort of unappetising colour, but lady's bedstraw gives that lovely colour that we now fake to make coloured red cheddar :)
Pretty sure they didn't use madder for that though.
Madder was pretty much a dried import from Roman times through to somewhere in the Dark Ages, when we think the Anglo Saxons started growing it again.
I have tried growing it here; no joy, it just does not thrive in our cold and wet.

Interesting about woad.

Way back from when I had a go at Kendo, I recall finding out that kit dyed in Japanese indigo was preferred because although the dye came off and made you blue, it was believed by the Japanese to have antibacterial properties.

The actual dye in both cases is indigo, just the plant yields at different levels, so it makes sense that the other properties might be similar.

GC
 
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No, no, no - woad and weld are not native :) - they are ancient introductions - woad quite late (possibly Iron Age). Two species of Madder are native; the third one preferred because of its intensity (I am told) was imported but, to my knowledge, is not found wild in the UK.

Rubia tinctorum - I believe was the imported one and preferred dye producing plant.

The two native species are Field Madder (Sherardia arvensis) and Wild Madder (Rubia peregrina) - both produce a dye but not as intense as R. tinctorum.

I will alter that to Indigenous :)
 
Interesting about woad.

Way back from when I had a go at Kendo, I recall finding out that kit dyed in Japanese indigo was preferred because although the dye came off and made you blue, it was believed by the Japanese to have antibacterial properties.

The actual dye in both cases is indigo, just the plant yields at different levels, so it makes sense that the other properties might be similar.

GC

There's a scheme of thought that says they discovered how to use it to tattoo from using it as a wound dressing.

I know that the North African tribesfolks who dress in indigo dyed cotton and linen end up with some of the dye on their skins. It's supposed to be very protective.
 

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