There was another estate releasing a herd of water buffalo for habitat improvement for similar aims as this case. It is interesting how the release of large herbivores has such a positive effect on habitats and biodiversity. It is often the large herbivores that have the biggest, positive effect on an ecosystem IIRC. Elephants for example. I think theres similar large fauna in the seas that are considered keystone species. I think the beginnings of right whales is something like that but I only half recall the documentary on it.
Pine martin release on dartmoor.
- Thread starter Woody girl
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Large herbivores are far from a universal improver when there are too many. Elephants maintain grassland by destroying acacia trees, but can push an area towards desert. Elk in Yellowstone eating all the willows, depriving moose of forage and other creatures of habitat. Camels in Australia. Red deer in Scotland. The list goes on and on.
Yes, but everything in balance works. If it didn't then earth would have been a mess long before we evolved!! Guess who messed up a lot of the balance? Clue, we're in a geological era based on the animal that's the answer.
Every living thing is working just as hard as it can to upset the so called "balance". Well...maybe not sloths, but everything else is working hard 
No living thing is self limiting, given the opportunity everything goes for growing its numbers, even trying to overshadow others of its own species. It has only been since humans have started to see their success as a global problem that we have really diverged that part of our behaviour from all other life.
No living thing is self limiting, given the opportunity everything goes for growing its numbers, even trying to overshadow others of its own species. It has only been since humans have started to see their success as a global problem that we have really diverged that part of our behaviour from all other life.
If you are worried about poor little pine Martins, - a native species being reintroduced in areas where they once were,...
Just wait untill they bring woolly mammoths back. Yes the science buffs are seriously considering it and are keen to do so. Was listening to inside science today, and some American "scientist boffin" reckons they can and will do it very soon.
Just wait untill they bring woolly mammoths back. Yes the science buffs are seriously considering it and are keen to do so. Was listening to inside science today, and some American "scientist boffin" reckons they can and will do it very soon.
One example of mammals controlling their numbers. Am abstract of research by the university of Toronto. This took less than 1 minute to find through bing. it was one of many I could have linked too as well.Every living thing is working just as hard as it can to upset the so called "balance". Well...maybe not sloths, but everything else is working hard
However I was refering to the control systems the whole ecosystems had. Boom in small rodents is follwed by a boom in predators. Apparently there is a weight limit for predator mammals which below it the population is controlled by predators and above it they are self regulating. Appparently researchers say it is about 15kg.
Humans are slightly out of that control systems that ecosystems have not least because we just change the environment to suit our needs. Whether it is the neolithic tree clearances that came along with beginnings of the switch from hunter gatherer to farming or much later with industrial revolution and on towards canals, trains and on to ICE vehicles. We upset the balance and the big evidence of this is that the international body that determines such things has finally determined that we have so affected the geology of the planet since the industrial revolution that we are in a new geological era. That is epic achievement in a negative way. It is huge!!
Does anyone actually know much about this pine marten release?
I noticed a small piece in the latest BASC magazine about them and they mentioned you should not use instant kill traps or damage dreys if pine martens are about.
Looking into this the traps sound logical but I didn't know the martens can use old dreys.
I can't find anything mentioning this in all the spiel about the release down here in Devon, have I missed it?
I noticed a small piece in the latest BASC magazine about them and they mentioned you should not use instant kill traps or damage dreys if pine martens are about.
Looking into this the traps sound logical but I didn't know the martens can use old dreys.
I can't find anything mentioning this in all the spiel about the release down here in Devon, have I missed it?
I think they probably are deliberately keeping info low key atm to give them time to establish.
I'm sure they don't want loads of noisy people, ( however well meaning,) tramping around the areas and possibly disturbing them.
It's only been a few weeks, so still early days for any info on progress.
I'm keeping my ears peeled for any news.
I'm sure they don't want loads of noisy people, ( however well meaning,) tramping around the areas and possibly disturbing them.
It's only been a few weeks, so still early days for any info on progress.
I'm keeping my ears peeled for any news.
Just coming back to this with some footage that popped up on my Youtube feed.
Clearly shows some gamekeepers talking about illegally killing raptors.
Click here.
Pine Marten release in the Lakes, 13 in a mix of males and females from a well established Scottish population. Grizedale and Rusland area but they're likely to go into the Duddon valley as they move about a bit.
According to your BBC article the release came about after a rare sighting in England. Previously thought to be extinct in England they were spotted. Perhaps that is why they're doing releases now?
According to your BBC article the release came about after a rare sighting in England. Previously thought to be extinct in England they were spotted. Perhaps that is why they're doing releases now?
If 75% of hen harriers live and die on managed, grouse moors does that make the killing or targeting of hen harriers by gamekeepers any less wrong? The killing of one highly protected species is a crime no matter where they lived and died.
However it would be good to know how many hen harriers have died in suspicious circumstances outside of grouse estates. It indeed if any were killed away from or not near those estates. I think that would also contribute to the understanding.
I just look at it this way, there's not enough hen harriers, they like grouse moors, there's less around than those grouse moors could support and grouse estates don't like them. Hmm! That makes me think, does it not you? We just need to catch them in the act if the estates are at it.
That's not easy. People who hunt or track for a living are likely hard to catch in the moors up to no good without them spotting you. If it was easy to catch them I bet there would be a lot more hen harriers around. Just my gut feeling.
However it would be good to know how many hen harriers have died in suspicious circumstances outside of grouse estates. It indeed if any were killed away from or not near those estates. I think that would also contribute to the understanding.
I just look at it this way, there's not enough hen harriers, they like grouse moors, there's less around than those grouse moors could support and grouse estates don't like them. Hmm! That makes me think, does it not you? We just need to catch them in the act if the estates are at it.
That's not easy. People who hunt or track for a living are likely hard to catch in the moors up to no good without them spotting you. If it was easy to catch them I bet there would be a lot more hen harriers around. Just my gut feeling.
Forgot to ask, ground nesting birds, are they more or less at risk from pine martens than the usual lake district predation by stoats, weasels and corvids?
I only ask because I once enjoyed one of the smaller mustelids hunting on a crag ledge while I was waiting for MRT. Spring morning and a nice, sunny day so obviously birds eggs on the menu.
I only ask because I once enjoyed one of the smaller mustelids hunting on a crag ledge while I was waiting for MRT. Spring morning and a nice, sunny day so obviously birds eggs on the menu.
Wrt ecological balance, the UK has basically no predators of the pine martin scale at the moment (no wild cats, no wolves) so it's good to reintroduce them. I've heard that about the squirrels too, red squirrels are better at evading them than greys. Predators do important work in these systems, because it's good when ill and slow prey species are removed from the equation. They can also change the behaviour of other animals, which can have knock on effects.
It's really wonderful news.
It's really wonderful news.
For me it's more of a question what is being done to help the ground nesting birds from all the extra predation? Round here the answer is nothing, as mentioned more habitat is being lost to intensive farming along with making it harder to control predators and now the reintroduction on an extra predator. I doesn't make sense to me.
The opposite is happening, there's a large amount of publicity about the release but not much useful information or help to those who will be affected.
I would have thought it essential to inform landowners if you expect them to severely restrict grey squirrel control, with the inevitable loss of trees, in order to establish martens.
Well, here, at least, local landowners and many others have been consulted and management agreed. So I'd assume its the same elsewhere.
I doubt they just let them go any old where without solid monitoring and agreement from landowners, etc. After all, round here, pheasant shooting is a major economic consideration after tourism. So I wouldn't be too concerned.
To be honest, this time of year, pheasants can be a real danger on the rural roads, and I've had twenty in my garden all at once last week, as the were escaping the guns, less than a mile away from me. My grass is covered in little bird gifts. Nasty!
Grey squirrels have also destroyed yet another bird feeder.
I'd rather have pine martins!!
Can you point me in the direction of where the advice is then?
I've trawled through the various sites and read through bits and pieces aimed at land owners but couldn't find advice about not using traps or removing dreys. I assume I've missed it.
I've trawled through the various sites and read through bits and pieces aimed at land owners but couldn't find advice about not using traps or removing dreys. I assume I've missed it.
Well, my googlefu seems to be working better today.
Some info from Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust
And some common sense from the GWCT:
Some info from Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust
And some common sense from the GWCT:
Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, is that like the BASC in that they are about shooting and game activities with conservation side being about keeping the game side healthy? If RSPB is a source you would like others rather than taking their POV I think we need more than the Game industry's tame conservationists.
Or am I just being too cynical here?
One point I had after reading about the GWCT is how they place great importance on using science to ensure reeintroductions are done well including with exit strategies and mitigation on the reintroductions. I wonder if they have the same scientific approach to the management of game estates such as the Grouse moors of the Forest of Bowland (and their gamekeepers nolling jets)? Which are IIRC actually supposed to be a low level of biodiversity than would have been there without the game activity. If not does that make their scientific approach a bit too protectionist and one sided??
Are there any academic papers in peer reviewed publications out there for better quality research on this than conservation and shooting industry articles?
Or am I just being too cynical here?
One point I had after reading about the GWCT is how they place great importance on using science to ensure reeintroductions are done well including with exit strategies and mitigation on the reintroductions. I wonder if they have the same scientific approach to the management of game estates such as the Grouse moors of the Forest of Bowland (and their gamekeepers nolling jets)? Which are IIRC actually supposed to be a low level of biodiversity than would have been there without the game activity. If not does that make their scientific approach a bit too protectionist and one sided??
Are there any academic papers in peer reviewed publications out there for better quality research on this than conservation and shooting industry articles?
