Pine martin release on dartmoor.

[Woody girl]

Some great news that 15 Pine Martins have been released on Dartmoor. 8 females, and 7 males. They became extinct in the south west nearly a hundred years ago, so this is brilliant news.
Next year, (2025) they hope to do a similar release on Exmoor.
I'm so excited to hear this. I've never been lucky enough to see one, so here is hoping the near future might give me an opportunity to get another bucket list item ticked off.

 

[Brizzlebush]

That's great! I'm so pleased to hear a good news story for wildlife.
Thanks for letting us know.
Let's hope they have enough habitat to thrive.

 

[Pattree]

It’s great news.
I’m not sure how soon you’ll see one. A Scott’s forester told me that you can live in the same woods and never see one.
It’s great to know that they are there though.

 

[Tengu]

I saw one this summer, very lucky.

 

[slowworm]

I wasn't going to comment on this as I'm not sure it's such a good idea. I'd like to know more about what is being done to conserve the habitat and animals the martins will be feeding on.

Where I live isn't too dissimilar to Dart or Exmoor, probably ideal martin habitat, but over the last few years there has been a huge amount of habitat loss. What I would almost regard as wild flower meadows (well fields cut once or twice for haylage) have been sprayed off and ploughed up and either reseeded with pure grass for industrial silaging or wheat/barley planted.

Today I noticed an area of scrub right next to an SSSI is being cleared and probably reseeded, yet more habitat loss.

Perhaps some of the money spent on releasing cute animals should be spent on less glamorous conservation?

 

[Paul_B]

If you know they are in your area apparently peanut butter (smooth is best) is like a drug for the martins, they can' resist it. AIUI there is a forest in Scotland that got into the habitat improvement and pinemartin introduction when I was a kid and they use peanut butter outside of an information centre and do pine martin nights where they were almost certain to get at least one visit a night.

 

[Paul_B]

Also, if they are making the habitat right for pine martins, then what are they making the habitat wrong for? What exists before "improvement" works might be right for more, less photogenic but even more significantly endangered fauna or flora.

It is often said that campaigns to promote the photogenic helps the whole ecosystem. The idea that panda and tiger conservation helps the native ecosystem as a side effect but without the pandas or tigers the money for it would be signifcantly reduced. However it is also true that it might not.

Rip up the wrong scrub you might wipe out a rare butterfly or rare lizard or snake or other insect, but you have saved one very rare bird at the cost of more rare fauna. Is that right? I am just pointing out that I am suspicious about reintroductions and habitat improvement. Has the environmental / ecosystem impact survey / study been done and done well? What is the impact of the introduction and any necesary habitat improvement? I hope they know that and know it is a postitive.

All I know is I don't know. How easy is it to find this information?

 

[oldtimer]

We regularly see Pine Martins in the Pyrenees. They don't seem shy of humans.

 

[demographic]

My money is on gamekeepers killing them by trapping em on little bridges over any ditches.
Same as they killed all the Hen Harriers.

Well, not on the little bridges over ditches obviously, as they can fly but they still killed em and are continuing to do so.

If anyone disputes this, at least do me one favour. Check your facts first cos I don't want to have to ratch out details of the myriad gamekeepers prosecuted for raptor persecution again.

 

[rarms]

My money is on gamekeepers killing them by trapping em on little bridges over any ditches.
Same as they killed all the Hen Harriers.

Well, not on the little bridges over ditches obviously, as they can fly but they still killed em and are continuing to do so.

If anyone disputes this, at least do me one favour. Check your facts first cos I don't want to have to ratch out details of the myriad gamekeepers prosecuted for raptor persecution again.

Got any details of the number of raptors that successfully fledge on land managed by game keepers?

Seems a little bit weird to me releasing a load of predators into an environment that they have not been in for 100 years and expecting them to not have an effect on the current eco system. Is there a surplus of prey species for them to feed on? Wouldn't want to be a small rodent, or ground nesting bird in that neck of the woods!

 

[demographic]

Dunno about all grouse moors but from what I hear since the widespread useage of medicated grit (which grouse consume to help break down heather) on grouse moors the amount of grouse per hectare has shot up by about 40% so significantly more food for predators. Some of which are protected by law.

Some information for Raptor persecution numbers HERE
And a small primer here...

"The report shows that Hen Harriers are being targeted relentlessly, particularly in areas dominated by driven grouse moors. Between January 2022 and October 2023, data from the RSPB and Natural England shows that 39 Hen Harriers have been confirmed killed, or ‘suspiciously disappeared’ across the UK. A recent peer-reviewed study published by RSPB Centre for Conservation Science and using a large dataset showed that the survival of tagged Hen Harriers in the UK is very low, and as much as 75% of annual mortality of tagged birds is due to illegal killing associated with grouse moor management"

 

[Falstaff]

I would have thought Pine Martens as carnivores, will predate on nesting birds, especially ground nesting, and smaller animals vole, mice, lizards etc but not be able to take on say, mink. I hope the releasers have done some solid impact assessment research before doing this.
Gamekeepers seem to have a prejudice about anything except their precious birds, but I wonder if this is partly driven by ignorant landowners expecting them to be able to report/show bodies of what they regard as "vermin".

 

[Pattree]

Certainly, some farmers around here absolutely believe that red kites take lambs. A friend of mine just shuts down in denial at any attempt to describe them as scavengers.

Rarely do predators eradicate a prey species. Even non specific predation tends to reach a balance - if it didn’t then the huge number of magpies in Telford would wipe out finches and tits.

……. except humans!

 

[rarms]

Dunno about all grouse moors but from what I hear since the widespread useage of medicated grit (which grouse consume to help break down heather) on grouse moors the amount of grouse per hectare has shot up by about 40% so significantly more food for predators. Some of which are protected by law.

Some information for Raptor persecution numbers HERE
And a small primer here...

"The report shows that Hen Harriers are being targeted relentlessly, particularly in areas dominated by driven grouse moors. Between January 2022 and October 2023, data from the RSPB and Natural England shows that 39 Hen Harriers have been confirmed killed, or ‘suspiciously disappeared’ across the UK. A recent peer-reviewed study published by RSPB Centre for Conservation Science and using a large dataset showed that the survival of tagged Hen Harriers in the UK is very low, and as much as 75% of annual mortality of tagged birds is due to illegal killing associated with grouse moor management"

Do you have a source that is not the RSPB? Statistics can be misleading. If for example 75% of the UKs hen harriers live on managed estates because the predator control etc.. carried out by the keepers aids their breeding. Then it stands to reason that 75% of their deaths in the UK will occur on the same land. Undoubtedly there are keepers out there who in the past or present have killed harriers, however to tar them all with the same brush is not right.

And it still amazes me that people put 'tags' on birds and expect it not to have an effect on their ability to survive in general...

The RSPB themselves kill certain predators and deer on their reserves, so they must acknowledge the impact certain predators make on the recovery of certain waders and ground nesting birds. I would wager the RSPB have kill more foxes than the average game keeper annually!

 

[Pattree]

The RSPB themselves kill certain predators and deer on their reserves,

I’m not challenging but I’d welcome a reference to this.

 

[rarms]

I’m not challenging but I’d welcome a reference to this.

I recall reading about it coming out at an AGM, but other sources seem to concur.

First google hit:
https://protectthewild.org.uk/undercover-investigations/rspb-predator-control/#:~:text=The RSPB fox shooting season,is simply cruel and unsustainable.


Or a potentially more independant source:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/23/rspb-contractors-kill-foxes-crows-hide-from-public/

 

[Pattree]

OK. Thanks.

 

[demographic]

Do you need me to google it for you?

As for the killing of raptors I'm sure Ramis can google *raptor persecution leadhills* for more area specific details.
Also, why does anyone think they are endangered in areas where theres masses of food?

I'm not keen on spending too much time on ratching details out again, but I can do if everyone else is incapable of doing it for themselves.

 

[Falstaff]

"Rarely do predators eradicate a prey species." Basically true of native species whose birth rate relates to food supply, but not necessarily for other incoming species, who may also have alternative food sources. e.g, the Japanese hornet lays to waste many bee colonies but predaters on other species aswell.
I'm no fan of the RSPB, who at times can seem quite OTT in their passion to save all birds.
e.g. I doubt that pine martens will wipe out certain birdstocks but can possible put a big crimp in their numbers. That's why I hope they have done a solid impact assessment.
Re masses of food, is not the only survival criteria - not sure why pine marten numbers declined but besides food, other competing species can drive another out - grey squirrels vs red for example.

 

[Falstaff]

Red Kites are supposedly scavengers, but seem to have learnt new live-predation skills. Local hawkers have noticed the massive decline in small mammals (and rabbits) as and where the Kites have spread to. Locally there are large numbers of kites, homeowners like to feed them, (e.g. my neighbour),competition is fierce and they will take meat thrown in the air. Ospreys in New York have been filmed taking pigeons out of the air in the same way.