Indeed Goat but you have described two possibilities in a continuum and where along that line does the arrow being propelled by the string lie? After all the arrow is not held away from the string and struck by it but is on the string when the string is released, the arrow accelerating with the string. The finger strike example does not apply.
Paradox of the Archer's Paradox
- Thread starter boatman
- Start date
Really?
There are loads of online resources out there and some by very knowledgeable, capable and in some cases high profile "traditional" & barebow archers who after explaining arrow flight & impact during the bareshaft tuning process, state to do everything in reverse if left handed.
Like here:
http://www.3riversarchery.com/longbow-recurve.asp
K.I.S.S.
There are loads of online resources out there and some by very knowledgeable, capable and in some cases high profile "traditional" & barebow archers who after explaining arrow flight & impact during the bareshaft tuning process, state to do everything in reverse if left handed.
Like here:
http://www.3riversarchery.com/longbow-recurve.asp
K.I.S.S.
Re the article, to say that traditional longbows do not have an arrow shelf may seem nit-picking but is true.
I see that he is not concerned with "shattering" arrows in relation to spine but merely whether a differently weighted point might improve matters and that one needs a set-square to determine fistmele rather than one's fist. In other words is this more than a randomly selected article that included some keywords?
Boatman, I have to ask if you are trolling. You seem to know almost nothing about archery but see fit to dismiss an article that is pretty comprehensive.
I've done a lot of rough shooting with the sort of bows discussed in that article. There is nothing inaccurate or misleading about the article.
Several people here have answered every one of your questions; your response is almost like someone sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "lalala I'm not listening".
I've done a lot of rough shooting with the sort of bows discussed in that article. There is nothing inaccurate or misleading about the article.
Several people here have answered every one of your questions; your response is almost like someone sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "lalala I'm not listening".
Not trolling but geniunely interested in a question which I realise had a possible simple answer in that the bowstring if centrally aligned will exert a pressure on a different side of the arrow and this may be enough to determine the direction of oscillation. Blind spot on my part not to have thought of it.
As to spine, this was raised and the old shibboleth of disaster awaiting those shooting incorrectly spined arrows was mentioned. Now either most arrows shot fall within safe spine parameters for the weights of bows used, which may be the case and if so, in order to find arrows with unsafe spine we have to go way outside normal usage. If arrows normally available do fall within safe limits then it is only accuracy that is at issue. If I am wrong then there should be multiple records of arrow failure and indeed injury, are there?
The film referenced showed an arrow breaking up and the design of handgrip might have had something to do with it or the arrow was faulty. To be evidence a series needs to be shot which seems reasonable.
To contribute to the discussion by simply quoting articles isn't really discussion is it? And, to suggest trolling seems to be a form of passive aggressive trolling in itself.
Oh yes, have shot with a bow for 55 years and am a qualified archery instructor. Perhaps somewhat of a technophobe where archery is concerned. It may be that the desire to take the bow and arrow to their technical limits could be responsible for some arrow failures because by definition if there is a technical limit the experimentation but inevitably exceed these to define those limits.
As to spine, this was raised and the old shibboleth of disaster awaiting those shooting incorrectly spined arrows was mentioned. Now either most arrows shot fall within safe spine parameters for the weights of bows used, which may be the case and if so, in order to find arrows with unsafe spine we have to go way outside normal usage. If arrows normally available do fall within safe limits then it is only accuracy that is at issue. If I am wrong then there should be multiple records of arrow failure and indeed injury, are there?
The film referenced showed an arrow breaking up and the design of handgrip might have had something to do with it or the arrow was faulty. To be evidence a series needs to be shot which seems reasonable.
To contribute to the discussion by simply quoting articles isn't really discussion is it? And, to suggest trolling seems to be a form of passive aggressive trolling in itself.
Oh yes, have shot with a bow for 55 years and am a qualified archery instructor. Perhaps somewhat of a technophobe where archery is concerned. It may be that the desire to take the bow and arrow to their technical limits could be responsible for some arrow failures because by definition if there is a technical limit the experimentation but inevitably exceed these to define those limits.
I'm sorry if you feel I was rude to you; indeed my post was over the top.
You say you are a qualified archery instructor? I'm surprised; maybe the qualification concentrates on techniques of loosing and aiming rather than much about the physics of shooting.
As for under-spined arrows breaking; you are right in saying that they would have to be very under-spined or faulty. Slightly under-spined and far-too heavy a head would also do it.
I've seen carbon arrows break. I've also seen kevlar strings break. Target archers seeking lowest possible time to target (ie fastest speed and hence less time to be affected by wind). So they've gone for super-light piles and very light shafts. That's a fragile arrow (of course the arrows may have been damaged by impact with the target).
Maybe most of your shooting has been with modern target bows. I've lined up with target shooters when I was using a 65lb longbow; some people next to me were using 20-25lb bows. I really wouldn't want to put one of their light arrows through that longbow.
You say you are a qualified archery instructor? I'm surprised; maybe the qualification concentrates on techniques of loosing and aiming rather than much about the physics of shooting.
As for under-spined arrows breaking; you are right in saying that they would have to be very under-spined or faulty. Slightly under-spined and far-too heavy a head would also do it.
I've seen carbon arrows break. I've also seen kevlar strings break. Target archers seeking lowest possible time to target (ie fastest speed and hence less time to be affected by wind). So they've gone for super-light piles and very light shafts. That's a fragile arrow (of course the arrows may have been damaged by impact with the target).
Maybe most of your shooting has been with modern target bows. I've lined up with target shooters when I was using a 65lb longbow; some people next to me were using 20-25lb bows. I really wouldn't want to put one of their light arrows through that longbow.
Indeed most of the work of the instructor is to reduce the possibility of one archer skewering another or a spectator and the safe handling of arrows when recovering them. Shooting style is important and we do look at the selection of equipment but at my level a great deal of trust is placed in suppliers and the general ability of arrows to resist breaking, partly for reasons of economy and budgets. I do not coach for competitions being content to introduce novices to the experience, to give those who once shot a refresher in its joys and getting reenactors to shoot wholly together.
from looking at the slow motion footage the initial bend of the arrow setting up the sine wave seems to be caused by the release. if you watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KGWC0PB6s you can see that the chaps release pushes the nock end towards his cheek (away from his hand) so the bend of the arrow is initially towards the bow. it then flexes back allowing the fletches to clear the bow. if this is the case then it doesn't matter what hand you shoot with because it would be the exact same situation mirrored. having too much spine would result in the arrow not flexing back quick enough skewing it off to the left (for a right handed shooter), too little and it would flex too much curving around the bow and skewing right. having the right spine of arrow allows it to flex back just enough to curve around the bow and hit the target.
The sine wave can be affected by a bad release, yes, but is primarily caused by the arrow buckling under the impulse from the string.
If your bow is *exactly* centreshot (which would require the side of the arrow rest to be offset from the centre) then the release would determine the initial direction of the sine wave.
If your bow is *exactly* centreshot (which would require the side of the arrow rest to be offset from the centre) then the release would determine the initial direction of the sine wave.
Don't take this question as a challenge please. I believe you are indeed an experienced archer. But my question regards the term "qualified" instructor. Is there a central authority that issues such qualification there? Over here I can think of various different bodies that heve their own separate standards for "qualfication.
For example the Boy Scouts have merit badge instructors/coaches at their Summer camps to teach the campers enough to safely get their merit badge and hopefully an interest in persuing further instruction elsewhere. While at university level it require only a Bachelor's degree in Physical Education with no specialized knowledge of archery per se to teach an archery class (unless said university is large enough to have a competitive archery team) Then again, coaches at the olympic level are experience competitors with (likely) no external "qualifications" apart from said experience.
The Grand National Archery Society issue an Archery Leaders qualification that is recognised nationally.
The base level for running events and introducing people to the sport, see the link for more details. http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/leader.php
Cornwall County run a similar course as part of their Outdoor Instructor qualifications of which I have the Archery Leader.
The Scouting Association do not require possession of the GNAS qualification merely that archery is carried out according to the standards and controls of the GNAS.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs120406.pdf
I cannot comment on further coaching qualifications because I have no experience of these.
The base level for running events and introducing people to the sport, see the link for more details. http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/leader.php
Cornwall County run a similar course as part of their Outdoor Instructor qualifications of which I have the Archery Leader.
The Scouting Association do not require possession of the GNAS qualification merely that archery is carried out according to the standards and controls of the GNAS.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs120406.pdf
I cannot comment on further coaching qualifications because I have no experience of these.
didn't say anything about a bad release the guy in the video has a fine release not perfect but ok. I know the arrow buckles under the force of the string, my suggestion was that the initial direction that it buckles (i.e in the video the 2 ends of the arrow flex away from the bow while the middle flexes towards it) is caused by the release, and the fact that however fast you can let go of the string it still doesn't travel perfectly straight over your fingertips, so the nock end of the arrow is already slightly flexed away from the bow, which is exaggerated when the full force of the string is put through the arrow
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