over nighting - help I need some advice

[Andy W]

Hi All,

I need a bit of advice, I am very new to bush crafting and I know I will eventually want to spend a night or two out and about. Here lies my problems and my need for advice.

Firstly I am a bit of a big chap, not tall but carrying some extra weight. I have read many posts and see many of you use tarps and hammocks - I am having some doubts about my suitability for this type of camping, i.e. is the hammock going to be strong enough. Will I be comfortable/warm enough/not fall out.

Secondly I like my comforts - I like a nice warm place to sleep with a sleeping bag, so I thought I may be better off with a tent, mat and sleeping bag set up.

Thirdly I don't have a massive amount of money to spend, a mate of mine has got back from Afghanistan and has very kindly given me a desert tarp which seems water proof. I also have a mat in the loft from my days in the RAF, I was thinking I could get a cheap tent and go from there - replacing kit as I got more experienced etc.

If any one has some thoughts I would appreciate any advice.

 

[addo]

No shame in a tent and a tarp, sounds like luxury to me.
If you stay on the ground (which I prefer) try out a borrowed bivi bag with your sleeping bag (Snugpack types are warm and reasonable money if thinking of buying one) and mat/tarp and see how you go, and ditch the tent then if wanting to lighten the load.

Theres many threads out there about all the various bits of kit, as long as your warm dry and comfy, you should enjoy yourself

 

[lostplanet]

This time of year probably isn't the best to start out, even with some experience and with limited Kit choice you would most likely be uncomfortable.
It may sound strange but if I were you knowing what I know now, In these temparatures I would test what kit I have in my back yard for a night just to see if I will be comfortable.

You will get lots of info here from members who know and some excellent kit suggestions,

My sleeping kit for most Uk weather consists of:
For this Cold weather spell:
A cotton Sleeping Bag liner
A ex army Arctic Sleeping bag,
A pair of bivi boots
A thermarest inflatable sleeping mat
In these temperatures An Army issue roll up sleeping mat under the Thermarest.
An army Issue goretex Bivi bag
An ex army Basha.
Get into the Bag warm, meaning jog on the spot for a minute. A sleeping bag does not create heat it holds/traps the heat from your body.

Even though these items are cheap it's still quite a lot to fork out on, and you can't be sure of the quality until you have used each item.

So, I would wait until the temperatures increase to at least 5 degrees centigrade at night and then go out with some Kit that is suggested here tested by you and enjoy it, rather than freeze your bits off and abandon the trip disillusioned.

Or you could find a friendly BCUK regular/expert nearby who could help you out for a night.

 

[Fin]

Hi Andy,

Most commercial hammocks can be rated by weight so - weigh yourself and see what's around for you. If you're "big" - or even "small" for that matter, then I have found that, once you've got the length sorted for your height, then as wide as possible is the way to go for being able to sleep flat - wether on your back or side. Importantly, if you're new to hammocking is to study set up, rigging and above all knots (confidence building). This link is a good start:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5

At this time of year, the main problem with hammocking is the cold. There is a tendency to compress insulation (your bag, mat etc) underneath you in a hammock, creating cold spots at hips, bum, shoulders etc - it's why I tend to go to ground at this time of year. Some of the die hard hammockers have created some ingenious sets ups with external under insulation etc - but that can involve extra expense and pack weight You're not alone in liking your comforts - anyone can rough it! your sleeping bag, mat and your mates tarp gift are a good start - I would make sure your bag is rated for the temperature (and be prepared to wear extra insulating layers if it isn't) and I would add a decent bivi bag. Put the mat and bag in the bivi (stops you sliding off the mat in the night) - rig your tarp to favour the weather (and a fire if you're fortunate enough to have permission) and Bob's the proverbial.

Tents v Tarps...the endless debate can be studied in part here:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64754

At the end of the day it's each to his own and you are absolutely right to start off with what you've got and get what you want/ need later based on your own personal experiences. Play with the search function on this forum - there's a wealth of info on it. One last piece of advice...You may want to start off your first night in late spring/ early summer (relatively benign) and work your way through the seasons to the sort of winter we're experiencing now. If your first night out is cold, wet or even life threatening! It could well put you off before you got started.

Good Luck!

Fin

 

[nenook]

hello mate, well i agree with addo tent and tarp = luxury, however a much wiser man than me once said , save your money up and buy once , because if you buy cheap you buy twice, practice putting your tarp up, get a thermorest (ebay sh) army bivvy bag (ebay sh) and a decent doss bag mod 90 perhaps ,that can be your building block for your sleeping out kit, I always try my new kit out in the garden before I go anywhere, and I mean everything from lighting fires to making brews and sleeping out. that way no nasty suprises( well only for the new neighburs) when they see me there, oh and a head torch is invaluable,
good luck with your adventures, stay safe

regards

Nenook

 

[Xunil]

You could also combine the tarp with an inexpensive tent if you aren't travelling too far and don't mind lugging both with you. The tarp could give a cheap tent better ground-proofing or, in poor weather (what, here in the UK ? ) you could even pitch a small tent or Bivi bag under the tarp.

I often do this when on vehicle-based trips, where the amount of kit isn't an issue, or if I know the weather isn't going to be great and I deliberately pack a larger rucksack with more gear in to cater for it. It's broadly similar to the arrangement some people use when they sleep in an Aussie swag. An over-tarp arrangement can work very nicely in keeping the weather out of a tent or Bivi bag that might otherwise spoil your trips if it leaks, but only if transporting the kit is not an issue, so this is not ideal for the small-pack, go-light type of trip.

I think a lot depends on what you want to achieve and, up to a point, how much effort you are prepared to put into it. In general the lighter the kit the more you pay so at some point you either have to assemble a pared down list of essentials or accept that your budget is going to be stretched. The ex-army gear is a great way forward without spending fortunes but, as has already been mentioned, it still comes to a significant amount if you combine the cost of the items listed above.

Take a look at the Members Classifieds and Swap Shop on this forum. You will find a lot of good stuff offered for sale or trade and, provided you have something of interest to offer (no sniggering at the back please ), you might find that some of the gear you might really want to look at could be had for stuff you may have lying around the garage, workshop etc.,

 

[R3XXY]

Another vote for practicing in the garden before going off anywhere too far away, also as others have said army surplus stuff is usually pretty tough, up to the job and reasonably priced. Added to that it's already second hand so if you don't like it you can usually sell it on for close to what you paid for it.

Regarding the tarp, learn some basic tarp knots and practice them till you can do them in your sleep.

Good luck and enjoy.

 

[Highbinder]

Most hammock ratings are conservative. If in doubt go for double layer and use higher rated cord (a lot of people use amsteel whoopie slings which is overkill anyway, I think they're rated to 1700lb IIRC?) for your suspension

If you like your comfort then a hammock is well worth trying out. I'm a total convert. I used to take a tent with me and even bought a supposed 'comfort' thermarest pad and always always woke up with a sore small of back. I've had a couple of not-that-comfy nights in my hammock but that has been more due to my insulation from the cold than the actual hammock. The number of nights I've slept like a dog far outweighs the bad nights I've had - infact I'd say my hammock is just as if not more comfy than my bed!

 

[lannyman8]

all as above, give the army stuff a go its tough reliable and cost effective........

again try things in the garden, this is the perfect time to do it, if it does not work go into the house.........dont be put of though, no matter what happens there are always better days.........

bit of kit not talked about are: parra cord, a simple knife, bergan, clothing, gas stove or home made hobo/wood stove, maps and a good waterproof case (unless you know the area)......

always remember to take a back up when it comes to the important stuff, ie if you have a flint for fire lighting make sure you have a spare in your pack.....also as your learning dont be put of by doing things your way, for eg, use a lighter for your fire........take your time and learn by your mistakes, after all this is the only way to get better at what we do....eg, if you make a coal on your first bow drill attempt brill but what did you learn about the wood used, the type of dust needed for coal, how much pressure to use, how fast to turn the drill etc etc........

all the very best with all you do and this is a great site, dont be scard to ask if you not sure........

regards.

chris..................

 

[Andy W]

Hi All,

Thanks for all of the advice and help. I am going to look for some kit over the winter, and as many of you have said, I am going to practice and try and get used to setting things up. Thanks for the kit lists I am going to get an artic sleeping bag (ex issue) and a thermarest mat, seems a good buy.

Ta, Andy

 

[lostplanet]

Do shop around, you may find the Issue "thermarest" a cheaper alternative, the only reason I bought my branded thermarest was because nobody else made them at the time.

Look for exped, snugpak and on ebay.

Strikeforce supplies has always served me well.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/strikeforcesupplies
http://www.endicotts.co.uk/
Gauge prices from here on surplus,


The only negative with the Issue bag, as you probably know from RAF days, is it is BIG and heavy.
If you transport it in the compression sack you need a big bergen (recommend short back Type PLCE). I tend to ditch the comp sack and stuff it in the bottom of the ruck in a Large Exped drybag.

Of course this is cold weather only, in the warmer days and nights I use a snugpak merlin 3 with bag liner. my next purchase will be a silk bag liner and a snugpak expanda panel as the merlin is a tight fit on me (46 inch chest 36 inch waist 5ft 10).

With this in mind I would go and actually try on the bag I am going to buy. The issue bag should be huge on you.

Someone can correct me on this, I think either the issue sleeping bag or the Bivi bag come in long or regular length sizes??

As mentioned It's nice to have a few knots stored in your head, there is a wealth of information on this website.

Also here:

http://www.animatedknots.com/

Look out for the evenk or siberian hitch, taught-line hitch, Tarp Taut Hitch, Clove hitch, Figure 8 knot and Round turn and 2 half hitches for starters.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45524&highlight=tarp+hitch

Plenty of reading to catch up on in the colder days,
Books wise I highly recommend the:

Collins gem SAS Survival guide:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Collins-Gem...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293021113&sr=1-2

Ray Mears bushcraft
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outdoor-Sur...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293021143&sr=1-1

Mors Kochanski Bushcraft
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1ZE7R4FEMEQTVQATDK0W

There are also some free PDFs on BCUK website

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/content.php?r=124-downloads-bushcraftuk

All this just for an over nighter!!

3 really good buys that I think are absolute essentials to Outdoor enjoyment and Bush Craft/Camping/Suirvival are:

1. Frosts Mora Clipper, Carbon or Stainless (your choice) with the Spine ground slightly so you can use it to get good sparks from the firesteel. Check into Legal side of carrying a fixed Blade. The sheath in the picture is not standard Frosts and made by a BCUK member.
http://www.endicotts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1317
2. Fire Steel or Fires Stick. Larger Army Type.
http://www.endicotts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=324
3. 30 Meters of Good quality Paracord, Type 3 Milspec 550 para line. Usually Made in the USA with a 7 strand inner. The endicotts stuff is the best I have seen so far for the money, but in limited lengths.
http://www.endicotts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=495

Hope That Helps.

 

[Peter_t]

one note on keeping warm at night, you can always wear a few layers clothes in your sleeping bag to get through a really cold one. for some reason people say this is wrong but i think these are just myths encoraged by the manufactures. the only thing i would say is to have something extra to put on when you first get up, otherwhise you will really feel the cold.


para cord is good for tarp lines that will be perminant but for general lashings it is too expensive imo. i carry a ball of jute twine, its suprisingly strong, dirt cheep and is bio degradable or waste can be burnt on the fire.

don't get pressured into having gadgets, adapting hammocks to use in the cold and having complex rigging systems seems very backwards to me. just keep it simple and just enjoy yourself


pete

 

[bigandy]

hi pal and welcome to the forum.
I like you am of the larger than most variety! I weigh in at 25.5 stone and 6 xl up top to give you an idea.
i have been a ground dweller most of my life and find issue kit bomb proof cheap and easily adaptable for my size. I use an issue arctic bag for the cold times and have just found a commercially available vango bag that is plenty big enough for warmer camps.i also use an issue bivi bag and have simply altered it to fit!(by sewing in an expansion panel). i also used a tarp rather than tent (personal preferance).
I too have been looking at hammocking as i am getting older and like my luxury a little more no!! With that in mind i contacted dd hammocks with reguards to the weight limit of their kit. they said i would need to replace the standard webbing with something more suitable and all should be good as they test way beyond my weight. hope this was of some use.!

 

[Badger74]

Definatly go with testing first. I tried last night in the garden with my gear and found the insulastion from the floor inadequate, went inside at 1am. If i was out and about it couls have been intresting!!

 

[No Idea]

Im using a tenth wonder ebay heavy duty hammock.

Their normal ones are rated at 150 kg, not sure how much mine would take.

Im insulating mine on the outside, but i have used it with an xxl bag.

btw Im not affiliated with tenth wonder.

 

[addo]

Just watch out with these ex army arctic sleeping bags (as well as heavy/bulky) as the stitching goes on the really cheap ones. I had a down one and all the down went ...well down!
Feet lovely, rest.. a gibbering mess.
One bit of kit worth looking into.

 

[jackcbr]

The garden is the way, and practice, practice, practice. I've made the mistake of buying cheap stuff and then found myself replacing them later. Personally, I'd say hammock is best. get the knots right and the tension right and I'm in for a good nights sleep. I've even got an eyelet in the wall of the house so I can sleep out in the summer. Having read all the replies, I think it is time to test my cold weather rig out in the garden. I was tempted the other night when it got down to -11 here. And for a change the planes from Gatwick wouldn't keep me awake (all frozen to the runway). Now dare I try it over Christmas. Not so worried about the cold, worried that SWMBO will lock me out!

 

[lostplanet]

Just watch out with these ex army arctic sleeping bags (as well as heavy/bulky) as the stitching goes on the really cheap ones. I had a down one and all the down went ...well down!
Feet lovely, rest.. a gibbering mess.
One bit of kit worth looking into.

Thats a good point the early down ones used to make me wheeze in the morning, must be an allergy. The bag i'm recommending has a NSN of J11-8465-99-978-9194 year 1996 by polywarm also known as 'bouncing Bomb', there are Arctic issue that are smaller and some made by snugpak apparently. equivalent a Hawk or Osprey?

8305-99-130-2242 - bungee cord
8465-99-310-9203 - Thermarest
8465-99-084-5093 - Sleeping Bag, Arctic. Medium
8465-99-314-3139 - Sleeping bag, Snugpak CODE GREEN Softie 12 Osprey 4 season
8465-99-978-9194 - Sleeping Bag (Bouncing Bomb)
8465-99-517-2656 - Compression Sack
8465-99-769-7040 - Cover, Sleeping bag, DPM (Bivvy Bag)
8465-99-766-4578 - Net, Mosquito, Field Lightweight Sleeping Equipment. ST 3a/4408

also bit of inf here:
http://www.cqc.co.uk/militarysleepingbag.asp

HTH

 

[rik_uk3]

As said the army sleeping bag is really good. Forget the tarp to use, take a tent and play with the tarp until you confidence grows; no use pitching it wrong and getting a high wind and rain blowing through. Shop around and £100 and you should be up and running.

 

[Andy BB]

Remember if you're going for the Army Arctic bag to get a Long one, if like me you like/need a bigger bag!

No-one has yet mentioned a cookset - I'd recommend - on value grounds - a Trangia Army cookset. For about a tenner you'll get two pots, a burner, a windshield and a small meths bottle. It may not be the ultimate in ultra-light backpacking gear, but its bombproof, packs away neatly, and idiot-proof! you can use it with the meths burner, or can use the windshield to burn wood in. And the pots can be hung over - or in - a campfire if you have access to one. And - at a pinch - you can combine the two pots to make a makeshift oven.

As for starting out, why not come along to one of the meets. There'll be plenty there all too willing to give advice/help etc etc etc. A basic tent, arctic bag, tarp (in case the tent leaks!), cooker, sleeping mat/airbed and some warm clothing should see you right to begin with - even in this weather.