on or off canister burner?

[Martyn]

Personally I think it has the hype but for weight issues it has been blown away by modern meths burner systems for shorter trips (even by more simple gas burner systems)...

Meths is only beneficial for very short trips indeed. If you are only going to do one boil, then yes, a 35g stove (obviously NOT a trangia) plus 30mls of meths is the lightest option. But it is very quickly outperformed by lightweight gas systems, as soon as you want to go much above 3 or 4 brewups. Even then, this is only possible because you casn carry very small quantities of meths. As soon as you break the 4 boil barrier, gas becomes massively more efficient/poweful/convenient/clean. You have to be ultra-focussed on weight and on a very short trip indeed, to consider meths the better option IMO.

Stove + 100g gas cannister comes out at about 175g for the lightest gas systems.
The lightest alcohol stoves plus pot support, come out at about 50g.

That means meths only saves weight providing you are carrying less than 125g (including bottle) of fuel. The most efficient meths stoves use about 20 grams just to boil a mug of water.

I love the Jetboil PCS. It's not the lightest, or the most pwerful, or the most versatile, but it ticks enough of those boxes to be a contender and it's definitely the easiest to use. There are times that messing with a coke-can meths stove is fun, as is pumping away on a 100 year old paraffin burner, but sometimes, you just want a cup of tea. In real world use, whether it's knocking up a quick brew on the tailgate of a Landy, making a pot noodle for lunch on a day hike or brewing your bedtime ovaltine inside a cramped 1 man tent, the jetboil PCS wins the "most convenient" vote by miles. Ultralight purists can criticise it, gourmet cooks can criticise it, but as I'm niether, I think it's a brilliant bit of kit and I thank the stove-gods for giving it to me.

 

[Paul_B]

One way meths is efficient is with experience you can exactly measure out the required meths to boil the required water. I have a tiny bottle that when full gives enough to boil 850ml of cold water in recent winter conditions. In warmer conditions it required 3/4 of the bottle. All in all that is enough for me to have my evening meal and a brew. I tend to drink water during the day but a brew is nice. I also have a larger bottle that would last me several days, yet it is very light. The meths is the heaviest component of the system for longer trips I admit, but that is the case for gas too if you use an UL stove. BTW50g for a crux is bloody light but then the 125g can is heavy compared with that.

If you compare the meths systems (UL systems that is) against the PCS which is what I was doing there is no advantage on weight to use the PCS. UL gas systems are different. Personally I am only just a meths convert since getting a whitebox stove. It boils about as quick as my efficient little primus burner which is a big surprise to me. I do think that either the UL meths system or the UL gas system is best for most of the stuff I do. Woodburners are too heavy and the fuel has to be carried in to where I camp (on the fells). Petrol and other fuel burners are too heavy, remote can burners too. PCS, eta express and MSR reactor are too heavy and offer no real life benefit other than ease of use due to the system and winter/altitdude/cold conditions performance.

While ppl like the PCS (myself included) it has its limitations IMHO. You makes your choice. Until they design a burner that weighs 11g and can burn thin air I'll stick to my little gas burner or my little meths burner. However I do plan to get the primus express spider remote can stove soon. It will be my car camping stove where weight is not an issue. However being only 198g it is also light. Does that make sense? I already have a remote can burner so I don't need it.

BTW I am a stove freak in case anyone hasn't guessed. I have numerous meths stoves and gas stoves. (I have been trying to understand meths stoves for 2 years and with the whitebox I now get it, the first one that worked for me). I also have the honey stove 09. I want a kero burner but am resisting it on costs.

 

[Paul_B]

Martyn - have you tried a whitebox stove? That is the only meths burner I have got to work for me. It is as easy as filling it up and boiling the water. IMHO it is as easy to use as gas stoves, well almost. Excellent for short trips I reckon.

 

[Martyn]

Martyn - have you tried a whitebox stove? That is the only meths burner I have got to work for me. It is as easy as filling it up and boiling the water. IMHO it is as easy to use as gas stoves, well almost. Excellent for short trips I reckon.

Not that exact stove (it's of the "cat" type isnt it?), but I have experimented with ultralight meths stoves

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?5613-Pictorial-Martyn-s-Mini-Photon-Stove.

You've gotta be pretty intense about every gram you are carrying to put up with the hassle IMO. They work well, but meths is a calorifically poor fuel compared to gas, naptha and paraffin. It doesnt take long for the benefits to be lost. Any more than two cups of coffee and a pot noodle and all the gains have been lost.

The beauty of the jetboil is the convenience it bring (and the hardship it removes). You can knock a brew up anywhere, even standing up holding it in one hand while it boils.

For car camping I use this...

 

[rik_uk3]

Paul, you ain't a stove freak until you have a few paraffin (Kero=American and auzzy slang) stoves mate

This go quite cheap as a rule, good stove too

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Valor-Packawa...eAntiques_Collectables_EH?hash=item3efd759202

 

[Paul_B]

Been toying with a whisperlite for a while. I think they take kero.

Rik - I'm only training I'll admit. Was it you that pointed me to the stovie site? I had a look and realised to my friends I'm a stove freak but to stove freaks I'm not. NEver had a svea or an optimus (who took on the primus models I believe). I've been spending my life experimenting with gas stoves and the last 2-3 years on meths. I just been learning what I can about a tool then finding another tool to learn about. I have found my perfect gas stove and my perfect meths stove. Time to move to my next fuel type. Of course I have been dabbling with wood courtesy of the honey stove 09. I could do that before the kero burners. Need a wood gasification stove.

 

[rik_uk3]

One of THE best stovies known to man has this year turned to collecting modern stoves, mainly gas

He's been making a lot of his own kit for over 40 years including tents and Ventile clothing but finds new stoves interesting.

I dumped paraffin stoves and went to gas when I was a lad and only started messing with old stoves ten or twelve years ago and don't 'collect' as such these days. My lads got a JB and its good, I've started using ETA pots now because they don't cost that much more than a standard pot and work brilliantly on pretty much any stove, can't rate them high enough. I love my pressure lanterns but find my little micro gas lamps super and ideal for lighting and heating a smaller tent. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Portable-Camp...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0d682b6e

So I'm not a complete luddite with regard new kit

 

[AJB]

Been toying with a whisperlite for a while. I think they take kero.

Hi, I had one but never got on with it, it was so dirty to use and a right load of buggering about - I've got two different liquid fuel stoves now and they're nothing like as much work. It may have just been me, because everyone raves about them, but I would advise you to try and have a go with one before you spend the hard earned.

Andy

 

[johnboy]

If you compare the meths systems (UL systems that is) against the PCS which is what I was doing there is no advantage on weight to use the PCS. .

That's not really correct TBH...

A PCS has a quoted weight of 425g from the JB website
230g canister total weight of 336g

'system weight' = 761g and 27mj of potential heat energy

UL meths 'pop can'

Stove 20g
Potstand 15g
Alpkit TI mug 110g
Fuel to give 27mj of potential heat energy 1180g

'System weight' 1325g ( this does not allow for the weight of the meths container so the weight is skewed in favour of the meths stove)

Additional weight carried using 'ultralight meths stove' 1325g - 761g = 564g

Because Meths has such a low energy content the weight of your fuel is always going to be a killer it's just a plain fact. Also in reality you'll be able to extract more real use energy from the JB as it's burner is more efficient and it's got a aluminum cup and heat exchanger. So your fuel will last longer or make more brews or food than the 1.1 kgs of meths you'd be lugging around...

For something like an UL thru hike lasting many days the JB would make better sense than a LW meths stove...

 

[Martyn]

Because Meths has such a low energy content the weight of your fuel is always going to be a killer it's just a plain fact....

You keep quoting for the 250 size cannister though John. But that is overkill for an overnight trip. What do the numbers look like if all you need is 3 cups of hot water? What if you dont need 27mj of potential heat energy? What if all you need is 2mj?

 

[johnboy]

What do the numbers look like if all you need is 3 cups of hot water?

 

[Martyn]

Good answer.

 

[FGYT]

if a few grams is what your worried about carrying then

drink cold water eat cold food save the entire weight of the Stove heat system in most environments there is no need for hot food or drink.

or if you need to and really cant carry an extra Lb or 2 get down the gym and get fit enough to okenest: you Knacker :BlueTeamE

ATB

Duncan

 

[rik_uk3]

Something not mentioned (I don't think) is cost. Meths and gas is expensive fuel compared to paraffin. A pounds worth of paraffin last me a lot longer than a quids worth of meths or gas.

I'm a car camper so weight is not an issue for me (and I suspect many others here too) so I don't cut my toothbrush in half and trim my toenails to save a few grammes

John have you tried the Primus brand flask? Like the Primus brand turbo lighter I was very disappointed and the £4 Thermos brand I got on offer from Asda performs better

 

[johnboy]

John have you tried the Primus brand flask? Like the Primus brand turbo lighter I was very disappointed and the £4 Thermos brand I got on offer from Asda performs better

Hi Rik

I've got an old (about 20 years) Vango SS flask that's great and been everywhere but the cup's gone AWOL a long time ago, and a more Modern Thermos made in china job. Cheap but keeps water hot enough for Tea for about 10hrs and warm for about 24hrs... if it's 'primed' beforehand I like flasks..

I agree with you Rik Kero is a cheap fuel source.. I get 'test dreggs' of J1/ AVTUR from the local airport and they give it away as it's cheaper then dumping it.

It has a good energy value as well... 47mj/kg

Cheers

John

 

[Paul_B]

Johnboy - My whitebox stove is something like 30g with no need for a potstand (it is the potstand) and a v light windhshield and reflector. It takes a very small bottle of meths to boil enough water to rehydrate a meal and provide a good sized brew. Not sure of the volume exactly but I think it is about 1-2 fl oz, which is not very much at all. Thats about 28 to 56ml. Now if you say you have about three brews and 1 rehydration per day thats about 112ml per day. Not sure what that weighs or the energy it provides but your weight suggest 10 days plus out and for that length I would probably use my efficient little gas stove with a 125g can which is replaced when needed halfway through. Either carrying two 125g cans for part of that trip until I can throw the used one away.

I think based on 30g plus my 95g pot gives 125g plus say 112g of meths per day for my typcial use. That is compared to 425g plus a minimum of 125g can that probably lasts 7 days say, So say thats 550g for 7 days. My meths is 909g obviously heavier. But as I have said I'd use my primus gas stove for longer than a few days. I think based on the above the number of days is about 3.75 days and my meths system is lighter after that your PCS is better. However if you want to be critical about weights and fuel usage then take my primus micron. 76g plus 95g pot plua 125g can in summer lasts me 7 days. Thats about 254g lighter than the PCS.

Now I have no idea how the weights measure up with a kero burner. I'm guessing you need to be thinking of several weeks of use without the possibility of re-supply to beat a UL and efficient gas stove when you take into account the weight of the multi-fuel stove. There are websites where these calculations have been done more scientifically through boiling experiments in real conditions in the field as opposed to catalogue weights and rough usage vaguely remembered.

Of course a nice open fire is a lighter alternative. Light it and use a pot as much as you want all night plus you get entertainment. I mean how many of you enjoy staring into a fire, watching the flames? Better than a soap opera on tv IMHO.

BTW we each have our own preferences in everything. if any system works for you then it is a good one.

FGYT I'm easily strong enough to carry a 26kg plus pack all day for many days so I don't need a gym. I personally do not enjoy it as much as a pack that is not much heavier than most people's daypack. One that you can walk normally, with good posture and without really noticing it, That is why I sometimes obsess a little about weight of stuff. When kipping outdoors I'm always on the move apart from when I'm kipping at camp at the end of our full days walking. Base camping is different and I'd use a nice big gas stove. That weighs nearly 400g!!!

 

[Paul_B]

Johnboy - you should have been to Tescos near me last november. The SS flask I got there cost £2.75 and it works better than any flask I've had including ones that cost £20.

BTW I'd like to try a kero burner before I buy one but I know noone who has one. All my friends are either gas stove or meths stoves types. We haven't seen the light (or the big kero flame) yet. In the life of a stove it is the fuel that costs. SInce I can locate free kero I only need about £130 for a decent kero burner I reckon. heard whisperlite is less than £100 but it clogs easier than the other MSRs or primus or optimus stoves of that type. Anyone know which is the cheapest kero burner that is still reliable and good for cleaning easily orr without clogging?

 

[cheapeats]

I have both on and off cannister stoves the on is more compact but the off is more stable and I can use the big cannisters for extended trips with no decrease in stability

 

[Martyn]

I only need about £130 for a decent kero burner I reckon. heard whisperlite is less than £100 but it clogs easier than the other MSRs or primus or optimus stoves of that type.

Forget MSR, go for the Optimus Nova or the Primus Omnifuel.

 

[rik_uk3]

I love my Nova's and Omnifuels, two of the very best paraffin stoves going (MSR XGK is fine though). I'll use naptha fuelled stoves but paraffin is my favourite fuel when not using a Trangia.

The Omnifuel just has the edge on the Nova because you can of course burn gas as well as naptha and paraffin.

Whats 'kero' by the way (don't go for American slang a lot, sorry).

Apart from fuel costs as I mentioned earlier, choice of stove can be dictated by the food you eat. You don't need anything fancy for tea and noodle cooking and good use of a 'cozy' can reduce the fuel bill too. I'll use a pukka Trangia because with upward of a fifty minute simmer you have the chance of cooking real food but as a static camper these days one of the great joys of my time outdoors is cooking a nice meal slowly; that way I get better food and time to enjoy whatever of my toys I'm cooking on

Now if I was a nipper again I have no doubt I'd be shaving off the grammes too but at my age sod that, put a stew on for an hour, open a beer, and just chill out