hello all i am about to try for the 1st time the mine field that is water purification. my chosen method is milbank bag and boiling but can anybody tell me what i should be looking for from a water source? i have been for a walk around a new patch of woodland today and i cannot immidiatly see any source of running water however there are numerous small ponds and stands or quite turbid rain water. should i stay well clear or are these pools options thanks joe.
New to water purification can someone help me??
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Nothing wrong with standing water if there are no visible contaminants and it's reasonably clear enough.
In one of my favourite outdoors spots, there simply isn't any flowing water, so I have to use pools of standing water. The water table seems to be quite high in the area, so even small depressions can exhibit seepage.
I use the same method as you as well, namely the Millbank bag and a 2 minute rolling boil. I appear not to have died yet.
In one of my favourite outdoors spots, there simply isn't any flowing water, so I have to use pools of standing water. The water table seems to be quite high in the area, so even small depressions can exhibit seepage.
I use the same method as you as well, namely the Millbank bag and a 2 minute rolling boil. I appear not to have died yet.
ok thankyou for your response. how worried should i be that animals may have entered the water there is alot of dog walkers in the woods?
Water, whether cloudy or clear, that has been exposed to the air for a few days may have cysts which cause Giardia and amoebic dysentery, you should always vigorously boil for at least 10 minutes to kill bacteria
There are bottles which do the job but always follow the instructions, or Chlorine/iodine tablets
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/content.php?r=115-The-Science-of-Water
There are bottles which do the job but always follow the instructions, or Chlorine/iodine tablets
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/content.php?r=115-The-Science-of-Water
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Rolling boil for 10 minutes? Wow. Thats a lot of fuel you just burned. Is there any water left?
The Marine instructors who did our course said as long as you get it on a 'roil', it's safe. That's done the job for me in over 20 years of being outdoors.
Link below seems to back that up:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-do-you-need-to-boil-water
Sorry if this is a controversial view to some. Like I say though, I appear not to be dead yet.
The Marine instructors who did our course said as long as you get it on a 'roil', it's safe. That's done the job for me in over 20 years of being outdoors.
Link below seems to back that up:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-do-you-need-to-boil-water
Sorry if this is a controversial view to some. Like I say though, I appear not to be dead yet.
in fact a full rolling boil is not really needed TBH, around 80 C should be enough to kill bacteria, but if you reach 100 c it just makes sure.
i even use dirty water for my bread mix, and it seems to be ok every time, i have done it loads too...
if you really want sound advise about water check out this thread http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28811
it covers all areas of water use what lives in it, how to treat it and lots of methods...
hope this helps.
chris.
i even use dirty water for my bread mix, and it seems to be ok every time, i have done it loads too...
if you really want sound advise about water check out this thread http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28811
it covers all areas of water use what lives in it, how to treat it and lots of methods...
hope this helps.
chris.
The whole idea that we have to purify water is just ridiculous and time-consuming really, our ancestors would have just drunk straight from puddles and streams I imagine. Our immune systems are so weak now from not doing this that it's hard to know whether to risk getting ill by drinking unpurified water or to keep purifying it. I certainly find that the doubt in my mind as to whether I can safely drink wild water is something I need to maybe just rid myself of by just taking the plunge and starting to drink unpurified water. The likelihood that I'll die is probably very slim indeed!
There is an common misconception that boiling sterilises water; it does not. Application of heat breaks down biologicals in the water. The higher the temperature, the greater amount of breakdown occurs. The longer you apply the heat, the more breaks down. This is why pasteurisation works, you apply about 70 degrees for about 10 minutes and you get the same effect as boiling for one (ish). Clearly, the initial concentration is important. The nature of the biological matters. Viruses are not as hard as bacteria which are not as hard as bacterial cysts. Still, even after this time, the water is not completely free of biologicals, but the level had been reduced below such a threshold that a healthy person's immune system can cope with it. This is why hospitals clean all their bits and bobs in autoclaves, where the temperature is higher than boiling water. They put them in there a long time to ensure they are sterile. This is because people's immune systems in hospitals are often compromised.
This information is sourced by me directly from the author of the chapter on water in the Royal Geographical Handbook of Expedition Medicine which recommends a rolling boil for five minutes. This time was chosen for two reasons. The first being that it's a safe bet for those who can't identify a rolling boil and the second being that the book is aimed at all environments including altitude. With an increase in altitude, there is a drop in the boiling temperature of water, and thus a need for more time to achieve the same result. In addition people don't always time with a watch and 5 minutes accounts for guessing.
You must try to filter your water before boiling for two reasons. The first is that impurities in water can (but don't always) make it look like water is boiling when it's not and the second is that particles can insulate the biological from the heat both meaning that more time us required to boil and given that was don't know the specific effects, we can't predict how much more time we'll need. In addition, filtering with a millbanks will actually get rid of Guardia, it being so "big". The alternative is to over compensate and boil for 10 to 15 minutes depending on altitude. This may be a problem if fuel is scarce, so another alternative is to bring it to the boil and leave covered off the heat for 10 minutes (if filtered). This information is sourced from the CDC and WHO.
I hope that clears things up.
My advice is to filter it and then boil it for a minute. If, however, you suspect a chemical contaminant then boiling (which ultimately makes it lose volume) will only serve to increase the chemical concentration. The only thing you do in the field for that is to distil it, unless you are possession of a reverse osmosis pump.
This information is sourced by me directly from the author of the chapter on water in the Royal Geographical Handbook of Expedition Medicine which recommends a rolling boil for five minutes. This time was chosen for two reasons. The first being that it's a safe bet for those who can't identify a rolling boil and the second being that the book is aimed at all environments including altitude. With an increase in altitude, there is a drop in the boiling temperature of water, and thus a need for more time to achieve the same result. In addition people don't always time with a watch and 5 minutes accounts for guessing.
You must try to filter your water before boiling for two reasons. The first is that impurities in water can (but don't always) make it look like water is boiling when it's not and the second is that particles can insulate the biological from the heat both meaning that more time us required to boil and given that was don't know the specific effects, we can't predict how much more time we'll need. In addition, filtering with a millbanks will actually get rid of Guardia, it being so "big". The alternative is to over compensate and boil for 10 to 15 minutes depending on altitude. This may be a problem if fuel is scarce, so another alternative is to bring it to the boil and leave covered off the heat for 10 minutes (if filtered). This information is sourced from the CDC and WHO.
I hope that clears things up.
My advice is to filter it and then boil it for a minute. If, however, you suspect a chemical contaminant then boiling (which ultimately makes it lose volume) will only serve to increase the chemical concentration. The only thing you do in the field for that is to distil it, unless you are possession of a reverse osmosis pump.
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This raises a point about risk. In a recreational context, I'll drink straight from streams of flowing water, but in a survival context, the impact of getting ill is much higher, as we can't pop home and get some pills.
Great thread for those like myself who are not to sure exactly what to do!!
So how does boiling compare to something like this -
http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/product353.asp?PageID=40
I no its a more expensive way of purifying water but it gets rid of 99% of pollutants so its gotta be ok right?
cheers
Steve
So how does boiling compare to something like this -
http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/product353.asp?PageID=40
I no its a more expensive way of purifying water but it gets rid of 99% of pollutants so its gotta be ok right?
cheers
Steve
Depends what the 1% is
I don't the the phrasing and I don't like the claims. I'd like to data on it which is comparable to the spec of the lifesaver bottle, say.http://www.lifesaversystems.com/resources/bottle-technical-info
Even Lifesaver make some dodgy claims:
http://www.lifesaversystems.com/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=35074&Q=
I've had an open question with the technical director since I first read this. He's not replied
They have also have some well crafted wording, such as:
http://www.lifesaversystems.com/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=35113&Q=
The Travel Tap has a 2 micrometre (2000 nanometre) filter, which is shockingly big compared to the Lifesaver, which has a 15 nanometre filter. I'm not entirely sure how the Travel Tap claims to remove viruses with a gaping filter like that.
Filtering systems are brilliant until they get clogged or with these technical filters, break. If I had one, I'd still have a boiling system as a backup. Chances are that would be the cooking system though. Suppose it all depends on how quickly you need your water too.
In terms of chemical reduction, a home made charcoal filter will have some use, but not even the two bottles mentioned claim to be 100% successful with chemicals.
Friend of mine drinks from flowing streams without any problem, I tried it once as a kid and was ill for two weeks, boil for two minutes or chlorine tab for me.
what allot of people forget is where the water is sourced is vital really, if im up on the top of the moors then i would risk having a drink from the stream, as there is no human waist matter that will be in it, the only problem would be the normal bacteria etc that the water contains, and a bit of sheep pee, so all in all probably not so bad..
another area i go has a nice stream with a farm above it, would i drink from, not a hope in hell, you have possible human waist and chemicals from farming/leaching from the fields etc...
it all depends what a person is willing to risk at the end of the day???
the water i used the other day was not filtered and brought to a simmer at the moor location, the water was fact flowing and near on totally clear though..
regards.
chris.
another area i go has a nice stream with a farm above it, would i drink from, not a hope in hell, you have possible human waist and chemicals from farming/leaching from the fields etc...
it all depends what a person is willing to risk at the end of the day???
the water i used the other day was not filtered and brought to a simmer at the moor location, the water was fact flowing and near on totally clear though..
regards.
chris.
With regard to water filters; This is what Woodlore recommend as the best filter on the market. Pre-mac used to make one that fitted into the top of a 58patt canteen but that dosent seem to be available anymore.
That said I always just filter then boil/chems takes longer but pretty foolproof. As others have said i'm happy to drink un-purified if i'm confident of the source.
That said I always just filter then boil/chems takes longer but pretty foolproof. As others have said i'm happy to drink un-purified if i'm confident of the source.
HI guys, anyone had any experience of this -
http://www.thebushcraftstore.co.uk/...tern-water-bottle---military-issue-4756-p.asp
looks pretty good and wit it being made for the pattern 58 bottle could be good!!
Cheers
Steve
http://www.thebushcraftstore.co.uk/...tern-water-bottle---military-issue-4756-p.asp
looks pretty good and wit it being made for the pattern 58 bottle could be good!!
Cheers
Steve
Fast running water, which is clear, I've drank from a small stream, and was going into a reservoir, and it was OK.
Make sure you have a good roiling boil, which is big fat bubbles...
Make sure you have a good roiling boil, which is big fat bubbles...
I treat everything when I'm out-either boiling or running through an inline Aquaguard Eliminator on a Platypus bladder.
The 'too sterile' argument for modern life is something that I wholeheartedly agree with.
However, I also invest large amounts of money and time into kit and travel to enjoy my pastime. To risk a bout of sickness and diorrhea for the duration of a trip seems particularly foolhardy.
I've drunk straight from streams and lochs before with no problems but only in an emergency or if I know the source is clean.
The 'too sterile' argument for modern life is something that I wholeheartedly agree with.
However, I also invest large amounts of money and time into kit and travel to enjoy my pastime. To risk a bout of sickness and diorrhea for the duration of a trip seems particularly foolhardy.
I've drunk straight from streams and lochs before with no problems but only in an emergency or if I know the source is clean.
I use a Katadyn bottle like this
http://www.filtersfast.com/Katadyn-ExStream-water-filters.asp
I've had Amoebic Dysentry in India, and you don't want it...
I used to run Bushcraft courses in the UK, and we used to build Millbank filters and boil - Chlorine tabs are OK, but they don't get everything ! (and taste rank !)
Cheers
Pete
http://www.filtersfast.com/Katadyn-ExStream-water-filters.asp
I've had Amoebic Dysentry in India, and you don't want it...
I used to run Bushcraft courses in the UK, and we used to build Millbank filters and boil - Chlorine tabs are OK, but they don't get everything ! (and taste rank !)
Cheers
Pete
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