Need help with Fallkniven TK3ic - Desert Ironwood

[woodsorrel]

Hi Everyone,

After years of yearning and saving, I finally purchased a Fallkniven TK3. I got the new TK3ic, which has desert ironwood scales. I love the idea of having a Fallkniven made with a beautiful and durable handle material that is native to California, my home.

I received the knife last week. It's beautiful. But I noticed something odd. The knife is laminated (VG2-SGPS-VG2). And the lamination lines are very different on each side of the blade. On one side, the lamination line is approximate 3 mm from the edge. It runs parallel to the edge until it meets the spine near the tip. On the other side, the lamination line is approximately 5 mm from the edge. It runs parallel to the edge. But near the tip, it curves outward toward the tip and does not meet the spine.

This is different from my F1, where both lamination lines are identical. So I Emailed Fallkniven. Here is their reply:

... The final step in using laminate blades is that only when the blade is fully polished we discover where the lamination lines are. Faulty blades are always rejected but blades are kept as we consider this as a cosmetic detail with no negative effect on the blade performance. Should we use only 100 % perfect blades, our knives would become extremely expensive.


I am OK with this explanation... as long as he is correct that it will not affect the performance and durability of my knife. Can some of the blade makers on the forum weigh in on this. Is this purely a cosmetic issue?

Thank you for the help.

- Woodsorrel

 

[Stew]

He's right.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

That looks like a mighty fine knife you've got.

If you went into the hardware store at Stoney Rapids, Assin'skowtiniwak, and complained to the owner about such things on the knife they sold you, they'd laugh at you.

Its a knife ? A knife gets used, gets used for tin opening, cutting ten, wood, dog traces, skinning small game, fixing canoes, sledges , dog traces, leather, fabrics, cutting cedar bedding. fixing food and so on. Will you use it? What for?

Looks a bit small for my use but then its what you need it for.

 

[Billy-o]

I have always wanted to love the TK3. I bought three in the end and returned them all for one foul up or another ... in fact all to do with sloppy lock up. (I have seen uneven grinds on other Fallkies)

I don't know who actually makes it. I have thought Moki, but that seems strange. Spyderco use Moki and those things have bombproof locks.

Whilst remaining a fan of Fallknivens, still owning several, this experience rather dulled my enthusiasm for the company. Not because of the knives' erratic QC, mess ups happen, but because of the imperious and dismissive attitude of Fallkniven when I contacted them about the issues. Long time ago now, but it leaves a taste in the mouth, you know.

In short, expect to see the unevenness. You don't have to like it though

 

[woodsorrel]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Billy-O.

I'm surprised by the irregularity given my previous experience owning Fallknivens and the price of this blade. Although it appears to be minor, it will make me reconsider purchasing another high-priced Fallkniven in the future.

From a cosmetic standpoint, I'm really not bothered by the lamination line. The rest of the knife is gorgeous and appears well made. I just wanted to be sure the knife will perform well and be durable. I envision gifting it to the next generation of my family one day. I want to be sure the quality of the blade is good. If it's purely a cosmetic issue, I'm actually very happy with the knife.

Like me, it may lack a little from a cosmetic standpoint. Perfect.

- Woodsorrel

 

[Janne]

So......
The outer steel layer is thinner on one side than on the other.
If they say it does not matter, why do they laminate the steel?
lyfor the esthetics?

I think this is a serious manufacturing fault. As the knives are made in Japan, I would expect perfection. As they are very expensive, I would expect and demand perfection.

 

[Billy-o]

Stoney Rapids, Assin'skowtiniwak,.

Sell a lot of $300 knives in Stoney Rapids hardware stores, eh?

 

[Janne]

I visit many sports, wilderness/leisure and hardware stores, and have not seen anybody selling Fallknivar either.

I bought mine online. Without handling them. They look good in the knife drawer. Hardly used.
WoMan is the most user friendly model imo.

Joe need to go into into his closest Walmart, they sell Fallknivar.
Yes. Walmart.
Exclusive knives? Once Upon a Time in Lappland.

I hope they are till Made in Japan, for those prices.

Those knives are made in a basically fully automated environment. The various steels are perfectly flattened, to a perfect thickness, sandwiched and fused under extreme pressure. Shaped. Ground (by machines) to desired shape.

To have the blade ground off center like this is unusual.
The various knife manufacturers have made blades of sandwiched steels for decades. I have never seen or heard of a manufacturing fault like this from those.

I would demand a new knife.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I will now.

The distance from edge to lamination line is cosmetic, and will not make any difference to the performance of the knife. If the core steel forms the cutting edge, that is what matters, and that is what Fallkniven are going to look at for quality control. The little swoop at the tip would bother me more than the distance up from the edge, but if it cuts, and that tip doesn't go blunt fast, then I would say that the right steel is in the right place, and you can stop worrying.

The blade is going to have to be quite closely controlled for finished dimensions, the only way you could tell whether the VG2 lamination is thin, as Janne assumes, or that the SGPS is a little thicker and not perfectly centred, is if you use a micrometer with a pointed probe, take precise measurements in precise locations and compare to a reference blade that has perfectly even lamination lines. If you put enough lateral load on the blade to notice the difference in toughness you are probably going to wreck the pivot anyway.

Is it reasonable to expect perfection for what in the UK is a £289 knife? For some things, but not for micron perfect blade lamination centring. The shallow angle at which the blade is ground relative to the lams means that very small variations in thickness and position translate into large differences in the location of the lamination line. This isn't a Rockstead, good as Fallkniven might be, they are not in that league, and they are about £1200 cheaper.

Further more, people have been pointing out this exact same issue, on Fallkniven folders, for at least eight years, and apparently Fallkniven have been giving pretty much the same answer for all that time. Over that time, have there been lots of people trashing the knives on line because they do not perform?

From a thread on Blade Forums, September 22, 2010.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/lamination-lines.775623/#post-8686932

Hi,

In general, we accept variations from the all perfect symmetric ground solution as long as the edge still is formed by the powder or VG10 steel. Largely asymmetric ground blades are rejected.

A problem in using laminate blades is that the lamination lines become visible only when the blade get polished which is the final step in the production. Should we reject blades which aren't 100 % perfect with regards to a symmetric grinding, very few blades would be accepted and the knives left would become so expensive that almost no one would consider to buy them.

We make several blades as laminates and the good reason is that such blades become much stronger and cause less problems for the customer. The negative matter is that the lamination lines seldom are all symmetric but, as a manufacturer we have accepted that as a cosmetic detail with no negative function.

However, as a customer, you have the full right to return any unused knife that isn't acceptable to your opinion, no matter the reasons, see the sale offer from your dealer.

Best regards

Eric Hjortberger

All the best

Chris

 

[Janne]

The steels they made the blades from are supplied to very, very precise measurements.
If there is a known problem with the centering of the grinding of the fused /laminated blade, that points to a problem in the production.
QC should pick this up.

I have never heard that the fixed blades have this problem?
Maybe a different manufacturing company?


If the thickness of the softer cladding does not matter, why is it there for a start?
These blades are in principle a composite material.

 

[Janne]

I need to go home and see if it says anywhere on the knives or boxes where they are made.
Mine are quite old so it should be Japan.

What does it say on your box or knife?

 

[Billy-o]

Well maybe, C_Claycomb. For a start: "It still cuts, doesn't it?" is hardly a criterion of quality assessment on a very expensive knife. As you know, these things are as much jewels as they are cutlery, and, like our OP, people put a lot into saving for them.

And, just because Erik Hjortberger (who, from your post, sounds a right chip off the old block) says it is OK, doesn't mean its OK. I mean, as honcho at Fallkniven, he would say that wouldn't he? Further: I just looked at some of the various Fallkniven folders and fixed blades I have and the grinds are all fine on them too. We know that the soft steel lamination is to protect the peceived brittleness of the 3G and VG10 steel in the cold, I get that. It is not an aesthetic imperative there. Nevertheless, evenness seems attainable. Why not hit it every time and reject or sell off as seconds those that aren't spot on?

Also, Spyderco sell laminated blades. I have seen a bunch, am a fusspot, and the grind lines seem just fine on them.Likely manufactured by the same company, too

It may just be that Spyderco's QC is more fiercely rigorous and requiring than Fallkniven's.

Obviously, this is just my personal observation of Spyderco's knives and, no matter how many I'd seen it would still be an unrepresentative drop in the ocean, so not much of a sample. We'd need to go look for complaints on the forums and weigh it up. But, just blurting out a full-throated defence of Fallkniven seems odd.

Sorry if this sounds coarse, but, in another place I have just been reading a lot of defence of the indefensible

 

[Janne]

My point. The soft cladding steel is to create a composite together with the 'brittle' powder steel core. Uneven thickness of this = not full benefits of this composite union.

I and my son we have two 8 knife ( kitchen knifes) sets of handmade Japanese knives, with a core of Hitachi Blue no2 clad with soft iron. Double sided ground ( on our request)

The core is visually perfectly centered. These knives are 100% handmade.

 

[Billy-o]

By the way, if you'd like a nice VG10 knife go look at the Boker+ Slack. Beautifully made, precise slipjoint, light and strong. Cheap too I bought one, and then bought another one .. fractionally over UK EDC length. One of the best I have got. I occasionally dropped posts on Spyderco forums asking them to make a modern sodbuster out of exactly these materials and to this scale. Then Boker made one. So, I can lay off that at least

Also by the way .. have you tried getting a decent large sodbuster recently. What with GEC not making their #21 Bullbuster and having no plans to, Queen closing, German Eye closing etc. It is getting trickier to find these once ubiquitous and perfected things.

I like the look of the Fallkie FH9 .. that's in 3G too ... nice blade shape, cheaper too

 

[woodsorrel]

Thank you to everyone who contributed an opinion. I've learned a lot from reading this discussion. But I'm still unsure what to do.

After reading everyone's opinions, I examined the edge and noticed an additional irregularity at the base of the blade. On one side, the edge is uniform. On the other, it appears "pinched" at the base of the blade (I don't know the right term). Is this also cosmetic? Or does it indicate that this blade is just not ground very well and I should return the knife?

Here is the good side. The edge is very uniform near the base of the blade:

On the other side, the edge is "pinched" toward the base of the blade. Here are two photographs:

Is this also a cosmetic issue? Or should I try to exchange this knife for another?

I appreciate everyone's help. I'm still trying to figure out what to do.

- Woodsorrel

 

[Janne]

Personally I would demand a new knife. The edge problem is a minor thing, easy to fix next time you sharpen it, but considering their reputation and cost, should have been perfect in all aspects.

If you google ’Fällkniven’ the first site that comes up is Fällknivens own, telling you ’The best knives in the world!’

 

[C_Claycomb]

The steels they made the blades from are supplied to very, very precise measurements.
If there is a known problem with the centering of the grinding of the fused /laminated blade, that points to a problem in the production.
QC should pick this up.

The starting stock might be ground to a reasonable tolerance, and the finished lamination is certainly surface ground on both sides, but it will not be ground relative to where the middle lamination is located. It would be very difficult to measure this and correct for it after the weld. If there has been any uneven deformation when the laminations are welded, that will give rise to what is seen in the finished blades.

I have never heard that the fixed blades have this problem?

Doesn't take much to hear about this featuring on fixed blades too.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/unbalance-lamination-on-my-fallkniven-a2.1427182/
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ven-tk3-higher-on-one-side-than-other.600354/
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/attention-f1-owners.697265/

If the thickness of the softer cladding does not matter, why is it there for a start?
These blades are in principle a composite material.

Its is there for toughness, as you well know. Saying that 0.1mm (not entirely plucked from thin air) of thickness isn't going to make a significant difference in performance to a hand tool is not the same as saying the material might as well not be there at all.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Well maybe, C_Claycomb. For a start: "It still cuts, doesn't it?" is hardly a criterion of quality assessment on a very expensive knife. As you know, these things are as much jewels as they are cutlery, and, like our OP, people put a lot into saving for them.

True, but Woodsorrel specifically asked if this was a performance and durability issue, and went on to ask if makers here could weigh in and confirm that this is just a cosmetic issue, which implies that he is not worried about the cosmetics, or wants this to be a jewel-like draw queen. If the the original question had been whether this was acceptable from an aesthetic point of view, I would have said send it back, not because of the heights on the sides, but because the tip looks odd, and it would bother me in an expensive draw queen.

And, just because Erik Hjortberger (who, from your post, sounds a right chip off the old block) says it is OK, doesn't mean its OK. I mean, as honcho at Fallkniven, he would say that wouldn't he? Further: I just looked at some of the various Fallkniven folders and fixed blades I have and the grinds are all fine on them too. We know that the soft steel lamination is to protect the peceived brittleness of the 3G and VG10 steel in the cold, I get that. It is not an aesthetic imperative there. Nevertheless, evenness seems attainable. Why not hit it every time and reject or sell off as seconds those that aren't spot on?

See threads linked in previous post. People do see variation in lamination lines in other Fallkniven knives. With manufacturing processes there is usually a tolerance bell curve, you reject the outliers and keep the ones that are near the middle, nominal, values. If the process has a wider tolerance it makes no difference that some items come in perfect, there will still be a higher proportion of outliers than if the process is tight. Welding metals tends to be a less precise business than machining them. I don't know about Fallkniven's process, but I do know a little about design and manufacture of precision parts, and what Fallkniven have said about cost increases tallies with my professional experience.

Also, Spyderco sell laminated blades. I have seen a bunch, am a fusspot, and the grind lines seem just fine on them.Likely manufactured by the same company, too
It may just be that Spyderco's QC is more fiercely rigorous and requiring than Fallkniven's.

Spyderco can have the same thing with their laminations, threads going back over a span of years, and recently too.
Particualrly this one -
https://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?p=1242436#p1242436

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sb-stretch-uneven-laminate-lines.1306678/
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/uneven-laminate-lines.1418391/
http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?t=22495


Now for the funny part. I don't really like Fallkniven knives all that much! I want to, and I have recommended the F1, but I don't like the cladding on their fixed blades, I don't like how thick their fixed blades are, and I don't like the ergonomics of most of their knives. I have handled a few of their folders, including doing a re-grind and spruce up of a PXL folder (laminated blade) and could find little to recommend it to me in terms of weight, design, or ergonomics, and the user/abuser of it had managed to break the pocket clip and shear off several millimetres of bevel in a way I have not seen before.

If my posts come off like a full throated defence of Fallkniven, that is not my intent and I am sorry if it came out that way. I was only trying to point out:
Lamination variation is normal, is unlikely to cause performance problems, has been going on a long while and it is not reasonable to expect perfection in that particular process for the price of this product. This is all about the engineering, not about the brand.

Chris

 

[Broch]

I would be a little more upset at the final grind/sharpening but I don't think I'd be sending it back. Interestingly I had a look on Heinnie Haynes' site and you can quite clearly see the lamination line curving down at the tip on the same side of the blade as the OP's.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Janne,
The reason the hand ground blades can have dead centre laminations is that they are ground by hand! They can watch what is happening with the grind and adjust as they go so that the lamination appears the same height on both sides. The metals you quote stain and the difference can be observed while work is on-going. Very different from stainless, especially if the blades are machine ground. On this latter, I don't know whether they are or not. Some years ago I had it on very good authority that the Fallkniven fixed blades were ground by hand, on wheels, which blew my mind. Folder blades though are going to be hard to do without fixtures. Even if those are moved by hand you can't see both sides of the blade and adjust as you go.

Chris