lymes disease

[Nonimouse]

They like moist sweaty areas the best (on humans). Common sense is the best policy - wearing shorts and vest top and bounding through the heather like a loon is not a good idea.

A visual check when you camp up is worth while - groin; arm pits; butt crease; backs of knees; ankles etc. There is a chain of thought that the disease is only passed on when the tick has been feeding for some time - 12 plus hours.

I tend to think that a lot of cases never get mentioned to the Doc as people think it's something elese and weather it through - like 'flu or a nasty viral infection. In southern Africa there is a tick born disease called 'Tick 'Flu' which makes you feel like hell for three days and then cr*p for another week or so, after which you are deemed as proof from ever catching it again. As to deaths - any bug can kill given the right situation.

Doc, as a point of interest the last survey we did on deer on my patch, we only need Sika to make the full UK tally. We even have recorded sightings of Chinese Water Deer south of Swindon. The Fallow are undoubtedly historical escapees form a number of big estates along the A303 corridor. This last summer I have seen groups (!) of Muntjac in field corners near Exeter. Sadly their management is not down to us - we have to concentrate on Dormice and Water voles at the moment, along with 16 species of bat, four types of lizard, crested newts, smooth snakes, four rare butterflies, Merlin and owl flight paths and various flora!

Out of work I spend some time in a wood on the edge of Exmoor that backs onto the League of Cruel Sports site that Paul MacCartney paid for. The number of deer up there now is horrendous, badly interbred with obvious genetic faults, poor size and crawling with ticks. It's enough to make a man angry.

 

[Doc]

Shewie, as I've said don't let them worry you,........,google how many deaths from tick bites,

Bernie

Better not. Googling 'death tick bites' gives you 1,460,000 hits, the first four being:

Death plunge of wealthy woman turned paranoid by tick bite

Professor commits suicide after catching dementia from tick bite

Tick bite kills dog in Kent

Paralysed by a tick bite


There is a risk from Lyme, but as Bernie suggests, it is a very small risk and it is essentially a treatable illness. I would ignore the horror stories on google (many of which are harvested from the tabloids) and follow the sensible advice on reliable websites such as the Centre for Disease Control in the US. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_prevent.htm

 

[Bernie Garland]

Better not. Googling 'death tick bites' gives you 1,460,000 hits, the first four being:

Death plunge of wealthy woman turned paranoid by tick bite

Professor commits suicide after catching dementia from tick bite

Tick bite kills dog in Kent

Paralysed by a tick bite


There is a risk from Lyme, but as Bernie suggests, it is a very small risk and it is essentially a treatable illness. I would ignore the horror stories on google (many of which are harvested from the tabloids) and follow the sensible advice on reliable websites such as the Centre for Disease Control in the US. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_prevent.htm

Your right there Doc Don't google it:yikes:

Bernie

 

[Shewie]

I might just have to check out the paranoid wealthy womans demise. Now that sounds like a crazy tale.

I does sound like common sense will prevail although I`m not used to checking my own cracks and crevasses.

 

[BorderReiver]

I might just have to check out the paranoid wealthy womans demise. Now that sounds like a crazy tale.

I does sound like common sense will prevail although I`m not used to checking my own cracks and crevasses.

Not so crazy when you think about the Indian lass who killed herself when she thought that the LHC was going to destroy the world.

 

[w00dsmoke]

I'm really surpised at how many ticks folks are seeing this year, I've not even had one on me yet! Even my dog has only had a couple. I think there must be huge regional differences and I'm not sure what the farmers are using on their sheep to control them but this may have an affect.

My dog takes something that kills the tick after it's first bite, so any I find are usually dead on him.


I only know one person who has had confirmed lymes and the treatment involved daily journeys to his hospital for intravenous antabiotics for several weeks. Yet I know of several people killed by weil's...

To be honest it's probably best as doc say not to worry, take precautions and most of us will be ok. I do use alcohol based hand rub EVERY time I'm out though...

 

[inthewids]

AAARRGH!! I hate ticks! I was camping at the weekend, got home the next day away to go into the shower and found one on my %!*@ i felt like crying!! Then another on my side, the 1st one was reddish with long legs, ive only ever had small black ones, i only started getting them a few years ago, usually get atleast two camping, garlic doesnt put them off! I eat atleast 3 cloves a day. They burrow through clothes right?

 

[Lush]

AAARRGH!! I hate ticks! I was camping at the weekend, got home the next day away to go into the shower and found one on my %!*@ i felt like crying!! Then another on my side, the 1st one was reddish with long legs, ive only ever had small black ones, i only started getting them a few years ago, usually get atleast two camping, garlic doesnt put them off! I eat atleast 3 cloves a day. They burrow through clothes right?

I don't think they burrow through clothes. Only skin. They DO know how to find holes in your clothing, pockets, ect .

In the pre host stage they are even smaller then a sesame seed. They need several hosts to get the the reproduction fase. Each time they drop them selves, grow and wait for the next host.

 

[thewanderer]

last i heard the new forest uk had ticks carrying lymes disease scout association put out a warning to anyone camping in that area

 

[hen]

As I manage land in Exmoor I know a little about ticks. In April this year I pulled off upwards of 50 ticks, in a few days, from my dog, that's before I started using Advantix on her instead of frontline, now she gets the odd 1 or 2. I'd look down and see 20 odd ticks making a slow creepy march up my trouser legs. Sends you a bit mad after a while. It's not bad now though, as they go to ground after the spring/early summer feeding frenzy. Anyway, here's something I wrote elsewhere which I thought might be helpful...

1) Be vigilant - especially check warm nooks and crannies on you and your animals bodies (your 'grockles' for example) At least twice a day. (yeah right!!)

2) Preventative measures -

2a) humans should wear trousers and tuck them in and make sure cuffs are closed when rummaging in the undergrowth.
2b) animals use a spot on (eg, Advantix for dogs) and maybe a tick collar.



3) Use an O'Tom tick remover as they're amazing and by far the best thing ever for safely removing ticks. http://www.otom.com/ When out and about always have it handy.

4) Do not squeeze the body of the tick, DO NOT put vaseline or alcohol on the tick or in anyway freak the tick out before you have removed it, as it will empty it's stomach contents out into the bite including all the bacterial nasties that we're trying to avoid (like Lymes).

5) If we or our animals have a red ring/rash around a tick bite go to the doctors/vet straight away and demand to be tested for Lyme disease and make sure we get put on a course of antibiotics as soon as possible.

I've found out that if you catch Lymes disease it will forever be in your system (it's a bacteria) and the worst of it will kick in when you get old. Even if you are feeling no ill effects from it now, the earlier you can get on the antibiotics the better as it will reduce the effect of the symptoms later on in life.

This is also a good leaflet... http://www.newforest.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=5561


Hope that's helpful.

hen
x

 

[Husky]

Ticks are a bug which can be anoying but no more than mosqitoes and you should not let them limit your outdoorslife.
That said HEN:s post is spot on and especially point no.5!
DO NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY!
I got lymedisease from a tick I obviously didn't notice and when I sought medical help for strange illness symptoms the doctors didn't get the clues right.
Untreated the lyme develloped into "Chronic fatigue syndrom" and I litterally lost 5 years of my life and still counting.

Bottom line:
Checking for ticks daily and knowing signs of lymedisease is just one more bushcraft skill we should all have. Learn them and spread them on your next bushcraft meet and we will all be fine!

 

[spiritofold]

The second person out of my tribe to get lyme disease has just been treated with a two week course of amoxycillin. He had a tick bite on his lower leg. I removed the tick and a week later the bullseye appeared and started spreading out. Had to take him for a blood test yesterday so's the antibodies to the bacteria can be confirmed, just for statistical records. The antibiotics have done the trick though.

A hazard of the woodland round here!

Andy >>>>>---------------------------------<>

 

[scanker]

That happened to someone I know too Husky - Lyme disease went diagnosed as ME for a long time.

 

[gunslinger]

There was a recent discussion on lymes disease on SoTP

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8773

I remember some mention of details of infected areas but havent had time to find it


Enjoy
GS

 

[Husky]

That happened to someone I know too Husky - Lyme disease went diagnosed as ME for a long time.

Thats just as bad but I actually got ME from not treating the lyme.

 

[Basha72]

Hi All,

I have just pulled this of another forum SWOG I visit and thought it would be of use to us aswell

At the request of a few site members to put information about Lyme/Borreliosis on the forum here goes. It is going to be in some detail so you can follow the development of the disease so you don't end up with a chronic infection.

Ticks have a 3 host cycle. This means that each stage of their life they must have a blood meal. If that host is carrying an infection it infects the tick for the rest of its life ( lateral transmission ) even going through the egg stage.(vertical transmission ) You can have all 3 different stages on the same host although the Larvae ( 6 legs ) and a lesser extent Nymphs ( 8 legs ) so called seed ticks as they are so small, feed on smaller animals. Adults ( 8 legs ) and Nymphs feed on larger animals and that includes you.After each meal they drop to the ground and develop to the next stage. Normally a 3 year cycle. In the life cycle you have a spring and autumn rise in tick activity although on the West Coast of Scotland they are active throughout the year. So you have spring cycling and autumn cycling ticks.

The bacteria causing the disease are
Borrelia burgdorferi ( Bb )...................Mainly arthritis
Borrelia garinnii ( Bg )........................Mainly nervous complaints
Borrelia afzelii (Ba )............................Mainly skin complaints

but there is considerable overlap.

This infection can be passed on from an infected tick biting you. Tick saliva is anaesthetic, anticoagulant and a recently discovered protein called Salp15 which at te time of the bite coats te bacteria as it passes inti your system. This enables it to evade the immune system until the infection is welll established and means there is a slow build up of antibodies. NOTE THIS.
In the tick the Borrelia are attached to the gut and the blood releases them and they move to the salivary glands. ( the tick moves from ground temperature to blood heat ) At the same time they ( bacteria ) change their coat ( OSP A to OSP C). This is the reason the tick has to be attached for more than 36 hours although some research suggests can be passed on sooner. Also throughout the infection the bacteria is changing its coat so that the immune system is playing catch up the whole time

[Photos: snip]

Clinical Signs and Symptoms.

All diagnoses start off by talking of Erythem Migrans ( EM ) This is a circle of redness radiating from the tick bite at a rate of 2/5 mm a day from 7-42 days afterward. This is non painful and isn't raised. This occurs in les than 30% of patients. If a tick bites you and there is an immediate swelling/redness which disappears in a day or 2 NORMAL bacterial infection. Not Lyme disease.

[Photos:snip]

Other symptoms are flu like ,stiff neck,swollen glands extreme fatigue, intermittent temperature , muscle and joint pains, eye dysfunction..

Consultation with GP. Now the ? fun starts. Don't have a clue as they do not have lectures on Zoonosis at University. Unfortunately the guidelines given by the HPA are those of the CDC American protocol and are useless for this country as they only have Bb. Take a blood sample for Laboratory diagnosis. This is too soon as immune system hasn't reacted yet. Negative..,.. NO LYME Disease .... WRONG.
May have given you a short course of antibiotics for rash depresses immune system as well. Negative WRONG
In some cases may give a positive result on first test go onto a second if you are lucky. This is called a Western Blot ( immunoblot ). The lab staff then interpret the bands as positive or negative.
Each lab has their own protocol and it seems hit or miss. They tried to formulate a European Standard for the labs but it was unsuccessful.
The Scottish Reference lab at Raigmore Hospital Inverness have grown 2 out of 3 local bacterial Bb, Ba types and are using a mixture for testing with improved results.
GPs must diagnose on clinical grounds with may be lab confirmation.
The guidelines also suggest a short course of antibiotics as sufficient. Unfortunately they should be high dosage and last a minimum of 3-4 weeks or until you respond. Anyone needing more info pm me.
morena

==========

:End of article

 

[Doc]

The article is quite good (written by a vet I believe) but there's a few points:

Rural GPs are actually pretty familiar with Lyme -at least the ones I know are.

There are in fact other Borrelia organisms besides the three mentioned that may be pathogenic (disease causing) but the lab at Raigmore do indeed use the mixed burgdorfei/afzelli test and have been doing so for over a year.

The HPA guidelines are evidence based. They specifically state that testing soon after exposure is likely to give a false negative result.

Treatment duration as recommended by HPA is normally 2 to 4 weeks depending on presentation. That's pretty cautious as there is evidence that 10 day courses are as effective in early Lyme as longer ones.

There is a lot of dodgy Lyme information on the net. The thinking runs like this:
Lyme can cause a huge variety of symptoms (true, to a point)
Tests can be falsely negative (true, to some degree)
Therefore, whatever your symptoms, it's Lyme. You need six months of iv antibiotics in my private clinic, and we accept credit cards...

Hi All,

I have just pulled this of another forum SWOG I visit and thought it would be of use to us aswell

At the request of a few site members to put information about Lyme/Borreliosis on the forum here goes. It is going to be in some detail so you can follow the development of the disease so you don't end up with a chronic infection.

Ticks have a 3 host cycle. This means that each stage of their life they must have a blood meal. If that host is carrying an infection it infects the tick for the rest of its life ( lateral transmission ) even going through the egg stage.(vertical transmission ) You can have all 3 different stages on the same host although the Larvae ( 6 legs ) and a lesser extent Nymphs ( 8 legs ) so called seed ticks as they are so small, feed on smaller animals. Adults ( 8 legs ) and Nymphs feed on larger animals and that includes you.After each meal they drop to the ground and develop to the next stage. Normally a 3 year cycle. In the life cycle you have a spring and autumn rise in tick activity although on the West Coast of Scotland they are active throughout the year. So you have spring cycling and autumn cycling ticks.

The bacteria causing the disease are
Borrelia burgdorferi ( Bb )...................Mainly arthritis
Borrelia garinnii ( Bg )........................Mainly nervous complaints
Borrelia afzelii (Ba )............................Mainly skin complaints

but there is considerable overlap.

This infection can be passed on from an infected tick biting you. Tick saliva is anaesthetic, anticoagulant and a recently discovered protein called Salp15 which at te time of the bite coats te bacteria as it passes inti your system. This enables it to evade the immune system until the infection is welll established and means there is a slow build up of antibodies. NOTE THIS.
In the tick the Borrelia are attached to the gut and the blood releases them and they move to the salivary glands. ( the tick moves from ground temperature to blood heat ) At the same time they ( bacteria ) change their coat ( OSP A to OSP C). This is the reason the tick has to be attached for more than 36 hours although some research suggests can be passed on sooner. Also throughout the infection the bacteria is changing its coat so that the immune system is playing catch up the whole time

[Photos: snip]

Clinical Signs and Symptoms.

All diagnoses start off by talking of Erythem Migrans ( EM ) This is a circle of redness radiating from the tick bite at a rate of 2/5 mm a day from 7-42 days afterward. This is non painful and isn't raised. This occurs in les than 30% of patients. If a tick bites you and there is an immediate swelling/redness which disappears in a day or 2 NORMAL bacterial infection. Not Lyme disease.

[Photos:snip]

Other symptoms are flu like ,stiff neck,swollen glands extreme fatigue, intermittent temperature , muscle and joint pains, eye dysfunction..

Consultation with GP. Now the ? fun starts. Don't have a clue as they do not have lectures on Zoonosis at University. Unfortunately the guidelines given by the HPA are those of the CDC American protocol and are useless for this country as they only have Bb. Take a blood sample for Laboratory diagnosis. This is too soon as immune system hasn't reacted yet. Negative..,.. NO LYME Disease .... WRONG.
May have given you a short course of antibiotics for rash depresses immune system as well. Negative WRONG
In some cases may give a positive result on first test go onto a second if you are lucky. This is called a Western Blot ( immunoblot ). The lab staff then interpret the bands as positive or negative.
Each lab has their own protocol and it seems hit or miss. They tried to formulate a European Standard for the labs but it was unsuccessful.
The Scottish Reference lab at Raigmore Hospital Inverness have grown 2 out of 3 local bacterial Bb, Ba types and are using a mixture for testing with improved results.
GPs must diagnose on clinical grounds with may be lab confirmation.
The guidelines also suggest a short course of antibiotics as sufficient. Unfortunately they should be high dosage and last a minimum of 3-4 weeks or until you respond. Anyone needing more info pm me.
morena

==========

:End of article

 

[littlebiglane]

I'm not aware of any evidence that vitamin B6 can reduce tick bites, and B6 in overdosage most definitely can give you a nasty peripheral neuropathy. The strength of 'over the counter' B6 tablets was reduced because people were getting toxicity from taking excessive doses.

Its B1 (thiamine) not B6 that is used...

 

[Doc]

Its B1 (thiamine) not B6 that is used...

OK. It was B6 that someone mentioned.

A quick lit search showed no evidence that B1 (Thiamine) is effective either. But it won't do you much harm either.

 

[stickler]

I haven't had time to read all of the previous posts, but there does seem to be some misunderstanding. Please do visit my website

http://www.shootpics.co.uk/lyme_disease.html

There are 2 BBC videos there to watch. They may well open up some people's eyes!

At the bottom are links to the BADA site and Tick Awareness Week site (today is the last day of this awareness week....though many people know nothing about it and all the dog walkers I've seen knew nothing when I spoke to them). You can download leaflets, posters and buy car stickers etc from BADA.

Lyme Disease is not treatable.....only the effects are. Preventing Lyme Disease developing is easy as long as you are alert. If you have any concerns you should immediately seek a blood test, though they will probably put you on strong antibiotics and test you a few days later. I've had to go through this and a gamekeeper friend regularly goes to his doctor for antibiotics and tests having removed the ticks himself but then developed a rash.

BTW, my daughter got a tick in France. The doctor used chloroform on it before pulling it out. I'm not sure he did the right thing as they say not to use liquids etc as they cause the tick to regurgitate and can infect you whereas proper removal may have stopped any infection.

Please do spread the word about ticks because it's a growing problem and some sources say that 1 in 3 ticks carries the bug. Please do link to my website page.....the top video showing how ill the lady is now, is enough to frighten most people into being more aware!

I think this is my first post on this forum....sorry it's not more cheerful!

Stickler