Legality of living in a yurt in the UK...

[Robson Valley]

Yes, it is a proper and useful comparison to cutting, splitting and seasoning many cords of wood.
I am leaning on a little of that in my avatar. That's crap for the workshop.
It was free, not easy even with the 36" power saw.

Part of the issue here is/was the up front, capital cost of the pellet stove, itself.
I spent more than $3,000.00 before I lit the first match.
Must be 10+ years by now. As it turns out, the pellet stove is a little more than half the cost
of heating ( 2 x 1200 sqft) for each of the past decade of winters.
The cost savings has more than paid for all my power tools, all my solar power system
and all the appliances in my whole house (stove, fridge, washer, dryer & dishwasher.)
Not a bad investment.

Does your brother experience winter nights of -30C and colder with wind? Because I do.
You base your wood burning experience on volume, not mass like we do.
Conifers do not produce "flash heat" if the burn mass is properly managed.
You need a far better quality stove.

Do it all again? In a minute.
Stove? Probably pay far more attention to the Scandinavian soapstone stoves.
I think that they have better heat transfer characteristics than my steel Harman PP38+ stove.

 

[Janne]

Traditional woodburners are very inefficient, even the more midern designs. Not enough mass to soak up the heat, most goes up through the chimney.

2 designs are good. The Swedish ‘kakelugn’, a ceramic/brick design with interior channels and the modern development of it, the Finnish Tulikivi stoves made from soapstone ( Magnesium something).

Plus the today so popular AGA stove which is fairly energy efficient compared to the thin walled stove/woodburner

The Kakelugn was designed in the 1700’ as there was a lack of firewood in Sweden. Channels run through the body, heat up the heavy body of bricks or ceramic blocks, or the Soapstone.
Far less wood is used, the heat radiates out more gently over a longer time.
I can compare a new Norwegian Jøtun wood burners with a Tulikivi as I have had several Jøtuns and one Tulikivi.


Southern Norway, specially the South West, has just as high humidity and rainfall as England, yet the building tech is the same as in Sweden.
It is a matter of thinking outside the box, to find solutions others have already solved.
To build today like it is done in UK is crazy. High building costs, bad built quality and high living costs.

 

[Toddy]

The British climate is in constant flux. It's temperate oceanic island climate, and it's islands that lie in the same range as continental areas that do freeze solid, 49 to 61degN, but we have the Gulf Stream running around us, so we don't get deep hard permanent month on month frozen solid.
What we do get are nights when it freezes so cold (-25C here, that was recorded but not 'recorded as an average on the records') that will change to +2 or more within a couple of days. Your thaw takes weeks and months, ours takes hours and a couple of days, and in a cold winter the weather will do that half a dozen times.
Our lifestyles, our homes take account of the weather variabilities. Once you're cold, you are cold, we might only be cold for a couple of days and then we're throwing off the extra duvets again and turning the central heating hours back down too.
Mostly we're an urbanised nation, London's mayor is already calling for woodfired stoves to be regulated because of the pollution they cause. Glasgow has restrictions in place to limit what can be burnt in domestic fires and stoves, and has done so since the 1960's.

My grandparents were familiar with built in ranges in homes, and were glad to change to fireplaces with back boilers and seperate cookers. A lot less work, a lot more comfortable and a lot less dirt and soot. My parents were glad to fit an electric immersion heater and not need the fire on every day to give us hot water.
I have hot water on demand and don't need a fifty gallon thickly lagged tank filling a cupboard.

I am really pleased at the advances in both the electronics and the technology that harvests energy from thermal mass, from sunlight, from hydro and wind. They all need space though, and mostly we live too close together to have very much space to use for such things. I think we'll get better yet at using the roof space for solar though, which would be a good thing.

It's not however the self sufficiency of a stove or open fire, options are always good
Rocket mass stoves are a kind of modern take on the heat mass stoves that were familiar in the past. Economical with firewood but retaining and giving off heat slowly over hours.
Like Jakob's house and stove, I mean.
[video=youtube;ErGQ0rXkn74]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErGQ0rXkn74[/video]
I can see the appeal of this, but again, it needs space and space is limited on heavily populated islands.

M

 

[Janne]

Interrsting about pine woid vs hard wood. I have always paid more to get hardwood, then mixed it with free offcuts of pinewood.
Now I buy precut Russian Birch, split 30 cm logs.

But hardwood burns more nicely, pine ‘spits’.

 

[Janne]

Toddy, the climate SW England vs Southern Sweden are very similar. Can get colder in Sweden but it is just as humid and nasty. Norwegian coast benefits from the Gulf stream too. Cold, wet, humid and rainy.
In Bergen in Norway they learn to swim before they walk!



The possible ban in London I have read about. I understand the concern with old woodburners. Inefficient, particle laden smoke.

Modern woodburners are different. My Jøtun in Norway does not produce virtually any visible smoke, and no smell if you are downwind.
I am sure most modern ones are designed the same way. I do recommend you check out the Jøtun sute, it is interesting.
My Tulikivi back in Sweden was far, far better, but the floor joists in my house now could not take the weight.

Burning wood is environmetally very friendly, if it is done in a clean burning stove or burner.

I would not like to have it as a primary heat source, too much work and effort.
Our primary cource is a Heatexchanger thingy. Like a reverse AC. In the new part of the house where that heat does not reach perfectly, there are electric underfloor heatings.
Woodburner to increase the cosyness. But if we use that we shut iff the heatexchanger thingy. Not sure what it is called. Mitsubishi made it.

Heating warm water - we switched two years ago here on Island to a direct heater. Fantastic. Electricity bill went down about 7 %. No amount of water to keep hot 24/7. No big container full of hot water that heats up the indoor air the AC has to cool.

Interesting video, very interesting! It is nice to see that there is still an interest in the old technology.
Not sure, is it in Finland? It is not in Sweden or Norway, the language ( can not hear properly) has a different flow.

 

[Arya]

Thank you for sharing that video Toddy! What a wonderful video, and inspiring people!

Janne, I think it´s in Latvia or somewhere close to Latvia, if I´m not mistaking the language.

 

[Toddy]

It's in Latvia. There is another video where Jakob explains the why and the reasons too
[video=youtube;AkVAO4vrsUA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkVAO4vrsUA[/video]

He talks about the Latvian ethnographic open air museum, and I have been there. It is a marvellous place, and the buildings are all of wood, all handmade, all so incredibly practical. Basically they dismantled and reconstructed old buildings that were to be removed or demolished for one reason or other (usually for 'progress' ) and sited them on the lands of the new open air museum. Incredibly inspiring if one appreciates handcraft, and not bought from B&Q and Screwfix
http://brivdabasmuzejs.lv/en/

It's a misleading description because it's a wonderful place to wander, to absorb wooden built structures, to fully appreciate the sheer scope of building in timber, not at all a musty museum.

It doesn't work in towns and cities, we have had too many fires to happily build in wood with buildings in close proximity to each other, but in a rural setting, they're wonderful

M

 

[daveO]

The UK is damp, and it's cool, it's not cold. There's a massive difference between island and continental.
Scandinavian style houses are just as damp here as any other. Insulation is brilliant, but it needs to be balanced with airflow.

This is very true. My house has very good insulation and at the moment we've got the windows open all day to try and drop the internal temperature. We've got a thermometer in the bedroom to make sure it's cool enough for the baby to sleep and it doesn't dip below 18 degrees Celcius and if the sun comes out or we have the oven or deydrator running for a while it will stay above 20. I live at 1000ft elevation in the Welsh hills so our climate here is colder than most of the UK.

The house is timber frame with 140mm of Rockwool in the frame and a multifoil insulation on the internal face of that to act as vapour barrier and extra insulation. The loft has 350mm of rockwool quilt which is actually substandard now in Wales.

This is where timber frame loses the advantage over masonry cavity wall construction. Masonry cavity wall, when it's built correctly (which it rarely is) has less problems with thermal bridging than timber frame and has a better thermal mass to regulate internal temperatures. You can build them with very wide cavities these days with over 100mm of foil backed insulation if required. I've just designed a house with a lot of glass and we've gone for masonry walls on that one partly to soak up any extra heat from the sun and also because large areas of glazing need to be attached to a structure that doesn't flex and move as much as timber can. You can add steel to timber frame but it usually increases the thermal bridge problems and attracts condensation around windows.

Personally I prefer timber frame construction though but you do need a good heat recovery ventilation system these days to deal with the air quality and moisture.

Incidentally I deal with a farm that uses yurts as holiday lets and they pack all of them up over the winter and put them in dry storage.

 

[Janne]

Thanks!
Arya, if you can access Swedish tv (SVT) watch ’ Cowboykåken’

It is about a guy that without prior experience build a US style timber house.
Well, if you other guys want towatch it, it is good. But no subtitles.

 

[Janne]

Thank you Toddy for further links. I hope you can one day visit Skansen in Stockholm. Open air museum with various craftsmen. Very interesting. As it was created in the late 1800’ they were lucky to collect houses which would be gone today

 

[mrcharly]

Perfect description, daveO.

It's the constant RH that is the issue here in the UK, particularly in the north. We get weeks on end where the RH doesn't drop below 90%. The other day I opened the bathroom window; when the outside (cool) air reached the bathroom fan, it triggered the rising RH sensor and fan came on. Not foggy outside, just persistent high RH.

You can't use chipboard in construction here, Janne, it just swells up and disintegrates. There is a very good reason why masonry cavity walls have been the traditional method of construction. Although the insulation values might be low, it makes for durable, damp-free houses. The damp problems in UK houses are usually caused by bad double-glazing installations that block air circulation, and damage or defects in the cavity walls bridging the cavity (then there is rising damp, but that is a whole other subject).

 

[daveO]

damage or defects in the cavity walls bridging the cavity

Usually brick layers not keeping the cavities clean of spilled mortar. It's a constant problem and is 100x worse when it happens with timber frame as the cavity bridge will eventually rot the structure. Timber frame wall ties tend to be flat too which helps to catch and hold debris.

 

[Janne]

Timber framed walls do not have any wall ties?
Never seen that construction.

 

[Robson Valley]

Probably not stud wall construction design so there's no room for vapor barriers and insulation so the walls leak, there's condensation and everything rots.
I can see the carpet walls of a yurt condensing human and food water vapor to rot in a decade.
In their desert of origin, water vapor is a rare commodity.

 

[Toddy]

Not if they're made of wool. Even here. It breathes. It stops the wind dead, it sheds rain, but it still breathes. It is vulnerable to being eaten though. It's also vulnerable where the tarp (usual in anywhere wet) roofing lies agin the wool. That breeds mould there.
Most commercial yurts are made of canvas, and that's a whole other ballgame !

M

 

[daveO]

Timber framed walls do not have any wall ties?
Never seen that construction.

It's very common in the UK where planning restrictions still require brick on the outside. Mortgage companies can be funny about financing rendered buildings if the render isn't applied to blockwork too. It's changing gradually though so more buildings use render onto mesh or board now.

 

[Robson Valley]

Might be fun for a fortnight but I'll take McBride. All day, every day, messing around in as wild as you want
and sleep in real beds in a real house! Stay out there, if you want. Only expected -6C with wet snow tonight.

The cats and the wolves and the coyotes won't give you the time of day.
Don't expect the bears to bother you. They need really easy kills at this time of year.
Just don't plan on going out for a whizzz in the dark. A sow with cubs will kill you, just for fun.
They ought to den up in the next couple of weeks anyway.

 

[Janne]

Thanks, DaveO for the explanation.
Let us hope they change so you can have the benefits of a much cheaper cladding material. For a self built, really easy to do yourself to do a timber cladding.

It is interrsting to read how traditions colour our regulations.

 

[santaman2000]

.... Insulation is brilliant, but it needs to be balanced with airflow....

Exactly true; unless condensation is abated it will seriously degrade conventional insulation.

 

[santaman2000]

....I'm told that if you build a base platform on short piles, but fill in with shingle to close under the floor platform, that the stone mass cuts the draught but allows airflow and acts as a kind of heat mass too. I don't actually know anyone who is doing that though.

cheers.
Toddy

Probably few [people if any building on piles there. The point of them is to allow storm surge to pass under the house during a hurricane (and even then, they're only helpful for homes actually in the surge area near the beach)