Leaving no trace, Leaving for the better

[Emdiesse]

Hi,

I am all to aware of the leave no trace philosophy, and I whole heartedly agree. One reason why we visit natural places is to experience, as is, nature and leaving these places littered with obvious signs of presence simply renders the place used and abused and holding none of the tranquillity it once radiated.

I would like to ensure that I follow this leave no trace philosophy however I have some questions.

1. The axe, the Laplander saw, any cutting tool to be precise. If you require wood, for shelter or for fire, how do you ensure to 'leave no trace'. I presume you always take only dead wood, or are there cases when live wood is acceptable. When you leave, you have left marks of obvious human presence, such as saw/axe cuts. Do you do anything to minimise this?

2. The shelters, I guess you also take these down when you leave to ensure the place is left as you found it, or do you ever leave them up to return to at a later date.

3. The fires, if you have a fire how do you return the site of the fire to show no trace?

I just want to ask these questions, as I, like I am sure most of you you have an interest in experiencing what nature has to offer you as well as an interest in ensureing that nature, almost, welcomes your stay; An interest in encouraging nature to exist, if not prevail against those who do abuse it.

Do you literally return the place you have visited, to as close as you can, back to a natural state. Dismantling any shelters, crafts, whatever you have produced. Burying ashes, scattering moss, whatever. Or do you simply return it to a state where it is less obvious of human presence knowing full well that with time nature will reclaim the land and your presence will have had such a minimal impact.

Also, is there any thing that we can to do perhaps leave the place we have visited better of when we have left?

Cheers

 

[v-ness]

Good questions there!

I think most folks avoid natural shelters, unless there is a huge amount of deadfall to use. Otherwise you will deplete your area of wood quickly. Also if you do build a natural shelter always take it down to avoid attracting 'undesirable' visitors.

Whenever we go out, we try and return any area we have been in as best as possible to its original state.
We also tend to tidy up after others.

We've sofar always used deadfall. Mostly we use fires off the ground so the ground wont get burned. Although the most we do is usually only have a quick brew, not a major fire. A little stove does the trick well there.

Cheers
Ness

 

[Man of Tanith]

1. The axe, the Laplander saw, any cutting tool to be precise. If you require wood, for shelter or for fire, how do you ensure to 'leave no trace'. I presume you always take only dead wood, or are there cases when live wood is acceptable. When you leave, you have left marks of obvious human presence, such as saw/axe cuts. Do you do anything to minimise this?

1 if using a sharp object i ensure i only take the minimum i need so instead of felling a whole tree for a spoon i try to trim the part i want off.
i always try to take a piece from further into the woods than most folks stray(usually you can tell where this is by absence of litter/dog poo in bags hung from trees etc) so it isn't as blatent.
depending on what i prune i might replant some of the side shoots this often encourages regrowth and a new tree.
i select trees that are located closely together thus thinning out the area and allowing those i leave to have a better chance of growing into strong healthy trees.actually hiding/leaving no trace of knife/axe use is very difficult in my opinion(happy to be proven wrong) which is why i go to so much effort doing the above

2. The shelters, I guess you also take these down when you leave to ensure the place is left as you found it, or do you ever leave them up to return to at a later date.

I tend to take a tarp when out camping as it eases the need to use natural resources for sheler building, however i do use a few sticks to support the sides of the tarps usually i just disperse them after use so they aren't as glaring obvious(if at regular campsite i leave them all in a pile/leaning against a tree to use again reducing the need to cut more each time i visit) if i do make a natural shelvery very rare) i make sure it is completely dismantled and the materials well spread over the area sometimes even taking parts further afield rather than leave a massive pile of leaves where they clearly should not be.

3. The fires, if you have a fire how do you return the site of the fire to show no trace?

Easiest way is to manage the fire you burn if it is done over night, i often wake/get up for toilet stop at about two or three am and use this enforced moving around time to push any half burnt logs into the hotter area to esnure that in the morning i have only embers and ash to deal with, then i fully saturate the fire area and disperse the ash and embers by hand. (this helps me check it is cold enough to disperse) when i say disperse i mean throwing it as far and as wide into the undergrowth. then i cover the fire scar with leaves and woodland detritus stand back or turn around then look again. works for me so far.

Do you literally return the place you have visited, to as close as you can, back to a natural state. Dismantling any shelters, crafts, whatever you have produced. Burying ashes, scattering moss, whatever. Or do you simply return it to a state where it is less obvious of human presence knowing full well that with time nature will reclaim the land and your presence will have had such a minimal impact.

Also, is there any thing that we can to do perhaps leave the place we have visited better of when we have left?

Cheers

if i am not at my regular campsite i do my best to return it to as close as possible to natural state
when at my regular campsite i tend to leave it a little more obvious so i can make sure that i only use certain areas having camped there for two years now i plan on finding a different area within the woods to allow my current spot a chance to regenerate. this means i will transfer my wood supply( i take a stock in so i preserve what is already there) build one fire place which will minimise the scarring to one spot and only clear enough space for maybe two tarps keeping it small
As for leaving the place we have visited better off packing out any rubbish we have made and collecting any left by less thoughtful folk is the easiest way to do that.
hope my ramblings have been interesting

 

[Neumo]

Not much to add to the wise words above. Her are my thoughts:

Wood chips, cuts to trees etc..
My take on 'Leave No Trace' can include leaving a few wood chips on the ground, as I am nearly always somewhere that would be very rarely visited; in a short while they will have turned back to be the same colour as the rest of the wood on the forest floor. When I do take some green wood I do it where it is not easyly seen & where it will do some good, as mentioned above. If I take a sapling or some hazel then I cut the stump off low to the ground & at an angle, so that rainwater can flow off the cut (which is what I was taught).

Fires
Most of the time I use a small stove, such as a small Hexi stove in an old tuna can or a Honey stove. I put these on top of a piece of 6" square ally plate, that soaks up some heat to stop the ground burning some & catches the odd bit of burning wood that falls out of the door of the honey stove. Move the surface vegatation out of the way until you get to earth, then put your stove on the leveled ground. When I am done I empty the rest of my brew kit water on the ashes, if I am burning wood, after having put out the small fire with water before that. Then cover over again when you have checked it's all out with your hand. You would have to have known I had a fire there to see it. When I have a larger fire it's in a Tesco baking tray mounted in a disposable BBQ stand (with 4" legs) so the whole rig is off the ground; just fill up the tin with water when you are done to put the fire/ash out.

Shelter:
I have not made a natural shelter yet as they use up lots of resources & I would not want to build one to destroy it a short while later. I do find them all over the place in some woods, which I am not that much of a fan of, so dont want to add to them. I just tarp morst of the time or hammock if I am in the mood.

 

[Emdiesse]

Thank you for your replies. and man of tanith, Yes, your ramblings were interesting. I want to ensure that when I visit a site I do not cause an impact that would be frowned upon by anyone. I want people to realise that there are good willed people in the world and hopefully bring a greater appreciation to others through my own acquired knowledge and experience.

Obviously two main points I have asked here are in regards to fire and natural shelters. I can appreciate that in most occasions a tarp is more suitable however I would like to ask how, how often and where you exercise your natural shelter/fire lighting capabilities as these, to me, seem like the hardest practices to exercise without causing alarm. On top of this they are also typically the two most highlighted skills in bushcraft books along side finding water and food. Adequate shelter and the means of providing warmth are almost as important as the air we breath or so it seems.

 

[Man of Tanith]

Wise words? what my ramblings?
neumo do you take the natural shelters you come across apart? occassionally i find some built in my local woods. depending on how new they look or how badly they have been semi demolished i might take them down but i would feel bad to think i had destroyed a kids den in the woods so unless they have completely fallen into a heap i tend to leave them just curious as to what you do.
on the topic of carrying rubbish out i once carried a teso shopping trolley bout three miles on my shoulder back to the shop from where it had been dumped in the middle of the woods.(thats was an experince you get some odd looks walking out the woods with one of those on your shoulder trust me)

 

[WeThePeoplexfbm]

in winter i dig little hole put the empty jack danials bottle in it then fill it then put on water and by next day it frozen over ^^

 

[Man of Tanith]

Thank you for your replies. and man of tanith, Yes, your ramblings were interesting. I want to ensure that when I visit a site I do not cause an impact that would be frowned upon by anyone. I want people to realise that there are good willed people in the world and hopefully bring a greater appreciation to others through my own acquired knowledge and experience.

Obviously two main points I have asked here are in regards to fire and natural shelters. I can appreciate that in most occasions a tarp is more suitable however I would like to ask how, how often and where you exercise your natural shelter/fire lighting capabilities as these, to me, seem like the hardest practices to exercise without causing alarm. On top of this they are also typically the two most highlighted skills in bushcraft books along side finding water and food. Adequate shelter and the means of providing warmth are almost as important as the air we breath or so it seems.

i think they are the two most highlighted skills in books as they are good page fillers, reasonably safe to do so wont get authors sued like some topics(wild fungi for example) and they appeal to something deep inside all of us from childhood we make dens and you only have to light a BBQ or small fire and people will gravitate towards it.
Also in survival the unpopluar cousin of bushcraft these two are the big two for staying alive after water and as you say the air we breath.

personally i am very lucky in that i have a bit of private woodland i have permission to camp in so fire lighting and shelter building can be practised without concern. when i was camping in more public areas i tended to use a stove as it left even less of a trace(and was a lot more discrete in the dark)

As for how often i build a natural shelter very very rarely if i am honest. for the amount of time i get out in the woods i have a large amount of skills i wish to practice(plus chilling out and doing nothing in man's proper enviroment very important that) i cant justify to myself builing one everytime although i am toying with the idea of establishing one in the new spot and leaving it to see how it lasts through a year as an ongoing project.
i have a fire every time i camp so the skills are always practiced

 

[Aussiepom]

Post No. 7: "in winter i dig little hole put the empty jack danials bottle in it then fill it then put on water and by next day it frozen over ^^ "

Am I missing something here, or are you simply saying that you bury your empty whisky bottles instead of taking them home with you?

 

[WeThePeoplexfbm]

Post No. 7: "in winter i dig little hole put the empty jack danials bottle in it then fill it then put on water and by next day it frozen over ^^ "

Am I missing something here, or are you simply saying that you bury your empty whisky bottles instead of taking them home with you?

well im under age XD (17) and cop seem to check my bag ^^ but i do go back and dig them up then im working there

 

[Emdiesse]

i think they are the two most highlighted skills in books as they are good page fillers, reasonably safe to do so wont get authors sued like some topics(wild fungi for example) and they appeal to something deep inside all of us from childhood we make dens and you only have to light a BBQ or small fire and people will gravitate towards it.
Also in survival the unpopluar cousin of bushcraft these two are the big two for staying alive after water and as you say the air we breath.

personally i am very lucky in that i have a bit of private woodland i have permission to camp in so fire lighting and shelter building can be practised without concern. when i was camping in more public areas i tended to use a stove as it left even less of a trace(and was a lot more discrete in the dark)

As for how often i build a natural shelter very very rarely if i am honest. for the amount of time i get out in the woods i have a large amount of skills i wish to practice(plus chilling out and doing nothing in man's proper enviroment very important that) i cant justify to myself builing one everytime although i am toying with the idea of establishing one in the new spot and leaving it to see how it lasts through a year as an ongoing project.
i have a fire every time i camp so the skills are always practiced

I hear that, my particular interest with Bushcraft stems from more so an interest in nature and an anthropological interest as opposed to preparation for some sort of armageddon. I am interested far more in primitive skills than survival skills. I want to learn to make fire with bow drills, fire ploughs as opposed to matches and lighters. I want to learn the sort of admirable independence seen from remote hunter-gatherer tribes as opposed to learning how to 'survive'; To 'survive', also, seems to negative. Why would I want to just simply pull through when I could actually prosper in a given situation.

I want to learn the core, the foundations, through which I can apply to modern life. If I can build a fire, in the wet with nothing but my own hands and the natural resources around me I will, firstly, be impressed with myself and secondly I will have built a further appreciation towards how easy life is in our modern times.

In regards to building a shelter and leaving it up, this would be ideal. I'd love to have a small area for me and a few friends where we can just chill and relax. Then further afield make use of tarps, hammocks, bivis whilst I learn new sets of skills from what that area of land has to offer. Sort of like having a 'settlement' with an element of a 'nomadic' lifestyle, traveling out to hunt.

However, what are fully acceptable practices. To build shelter is a use of natural resources, as with fire. To hunt is to take the life of an animal through interest in developing that skill. To forage is to take plants from the land. To learn crafts also uses up resources. So at the end of the day, what can you do if you avoid these activities? Or what can we do to ethically and efficiently practice these skills?

How is the use of dead wood to construct a shelter seemingly less ethical than picking a fungi for use as tinder, when with all consideration the fungi perhaps is more difficult to find. Surely this isn't over looked, how can we ensure that together, although appreciating and making use of these naturally occurring resources we do not let the numbers of any particular species dwindle?

Cheers

 

[Neumo]

neumo do you take the natural shelters you come across apart?

No I tend to leave them as they are, as it's not my land and sometimes I am not supposed to be there.... I also see some 'TeePee' type shelters, where the wood is stacked up around the base of a tree so it looks like a TeePee. I used to think they were shelters but according to a BCTV guy I had a chat with they are forn drying out wood & are not shelters at all.

In the modern age 'Leave No Trace' should mainly mean 'Take Your Rubbish Home' & dont leave fire scars. If both of those could be sorted out then the countryside would be a much better place.

 

[Emdiesse]

'Take Your Rubbish Home' & dont leave fire scars.

That sounds a reasonable explanation of the 'leave no trace', beyond that there is not a huge amount you can do. Trying to replant nettles you have made into cordage probably isn't the easiest thing to do

 

[ex-member Raikey]

Well done everyone,...

some excellent replies here, (so much so i find it hard to add anything,...)

Especially Sam, your ramblings are legendary!!

Cheers

Stu

 

[Man of Tanith]

Especially Sam, your ramblings are legendary!!

you want to convince my family, fiancee, friends and workmates of that?


However, what are fully acceptable practices. To build shelter is a use of natural resources, as with fire. To hunt is to take the life of an animal through interest in developing that skill. To forage is to take plants from the land. To learn crafts also uses up resources. So at the end of the day, what can you do if you avoid these activities? Or what can we do to ethically and efficiently practice these skills?

How is the use of dead wood to construct a shelter seemingly less ethical than picking a fungi for use as tinder, when with all consideration the fungi perhaps is more difficult to find. Surely this isn't over looked, how can we ensure that together, although appreciating and making use of these naturally occurring resources we do not let the numbers of any particular species dwindle?

short answer is yes it can ethically be done.as for efficiently that depends on how much practice you get.

with some resources like nettles its very easy to make sure you dont run the resource down because they grow rapidly pretty much anywhere they have the inclination to do so(like my veg plot).the same for some of the more common wild foods and in some cases animals i seem to recall reading an article where the interviewee states rabbits know they are here to feed everything else thats why they breed so much.Those that are rarer should be treated with some respect and restraint.

a good way to ensure that resources do not dwindle is to only take what you need rather than what you want, to gather them from a wide area and to make sure you monitor the amount there is stopping when you think you have taken as much as is practical to allow the area/plant to continue to produce more.

i know in some cultures (knowledge gleaned from Tribe and such like) that certain cultures even enforce bans on gathering or hunting/fishing natural resources to ensure that any that have been depleted excessively have an oppourtunity to reproduce and replenish, perhaps trying to develop that mindset yourself is the way to go.

As for building natural shelters using a resouce well yes it does but depending on the style of natural shelter its impact on the resources can be minimised, i don't think many of use would fell a pine tree to make a lean to shelter for one night(something suggested by nessmuk) and if making a debris shleter you are only using leaves etc already shed by the tree and doing nothing other than composting the forest floor as long as you return the wood frame and leaves back to the enviroment after use i dont think it has a massive impact for a night or two.

Having a fire again uses a resource and should always be assessed depending on the area you find yourself in if there is very little wood then dont burn the little there is, if you find there is plenty then a fire isnt going to impact as badly and as long as you dont leave fire scars it isn't a big deal. the problem arises if you return repeatedly to the same campsite and strip the nearby surroundings of ALL the resources.

To sum up my latest ramblings moderation and self regulation are the key, although it is a bit of a cliche we really dont inherit the earth from our ancestors we merely borrow it from our children to make sure they have the same oppourtunities we do.

 

[woodspirits]

emdiesse,
the very fact that you asked the questions shows, to me, that you have a natural empathy with nature and you will instinctively know what is right.

steve

 

[Emdiesse]

you want to convince my family, fiancee, friends and workmates of that?


However, what are fully acceptable practices. To build shelter is a use of natural resources, as with fire. To hunt is to take the life of an animal through interest in developing that skill. To forage is to take plants from the land. To learn crafts also uses up resources. So at the end of the day, what can you do if you avoid these activities? Or what can we do to ethically and efficiently practice these skills?

How is the use of dead wood to construct a shelter seemingly less ethical than picking a fungi for use as tinder, when with all consideration the fungi perhaps is more difficult to find. Surely this isn't over looked, how can we ensure that together, although appreciating and making use of these naturally occurring resources we do not let the numbers of any particular species dwindle?

short answer is yes it can ethically be done.as for efficiently that depends on how much practice you get.

with some resources like nettles its very easy to make sure you dont run the resource down because they grow rapidly pretty much anywhere they have the inclination to do so(like my veg plot).the same for some of the more common wild foods and in some cases animals i seem to recall reading an article where the interviewee states rabbits know they are here to feed everything else thats why they breed so much.Those that are rarer should be treated with some respect and restraint.

a good way to ensure that resources do not dwindle is to only take what you need rather than what you want, to gather them from a wide area and to make sure you monitor the amount there is stopping when you think you have taken as much as is practical to allow the area/plant to continue to produce more.

i know in some cultures (knowledge gleaned from Tribe and such like) that certain cultures even enforce bans on gathering or hunting/fishing natural resources to ensure that any that have been depleted excessively have an oppourtunity to reproduce and replenish, perhaps trying to develop that mindset yourself is the way to go.

As for building natural shelters using a resouce well yes it does but depending on the style of natural shelter its impact on the resources can be minimised, i don't think many of use would fell a pine tree to make a lean to shelter for one night(something suggested by nessmuk) and if making a debris shleter you are only using leaves etc already shed by the tree and doing nothing other than composting the forest floor as long as you return the wood frame and leaves back to the enviroment after use i dont think it has a massive impact for a night or two.

Having a fire again uses a resource and should always be assessed depending on the area you find yourself in if there is very little wood then dont burn the little there is, if you find there is plenty then a fire isnt going to impact as badly and as long as you dont leave fire scars it isn't a big deal. the problem arises if you return repeatedly to the same campsite and strip the nearby surroundings of ALL the resources.

To sum up my latest ramblings moderation and self regulation are the key, although it is a bit of a cliche we really dont inherit the earth from our ancestors we merely borrow it from our children to make sure they have the same oppourtunities we do.

Cheers, great input on this thread man_of_tanith. Really helpful to see others opinions regarding the conservative use of nature.

emdiesse,
the very fact that you asked the questions shows, to me, that you have a natural empathy with nature and you will instinctively know what is right.

steve

Great, I just hope with more knowledge I can make the right choices so to enjoy and benefit from nature myself whilst not abusing, hopefully benefiting, nature itself.

Obviously, I hope to participate and learn new skills and through which occasionally, naturally, I may with to make use of resources. I just wanted to clarify the correct etiquette.