Knives and Axes; a question of cost,,,

[Haggis]

I own more axes and knives than I bother keeping an account on, all of my knives are very good knives, but none of them cost half as much as a Gransfors Bruks Small Forest Axe or a Wildlife Hatchet; (I have one each of those too). But the question is; why do so many bushcraft folk refer to an axe, such as Gransfors Bruks, as "expensive", yet a knife at twice that cost is only just becoming expensive? If both tools are equally sine qua non to the bushcraft experience, (I feel they are equally so), doesn't it seem that both tools ought to be about the same expense?

(I am reevaluating my own opinions on over priced knives while waiting to hear from other users of both tools.)

 

[Toddy]

Ehm maybe because most of us get a heck of a lot more use out of a knife than we do out of an axe, and mostly the axes are like the moras and mass produced.
The individually, benchmade, knives are often purchased from a known Maker.

Many axes too come from specific Makers, like the ones from Cegga that are much admired and sought after here, but they are very much in the minority.

My knife (or one of them anyway) is used daily. I haven't used any of the axes since before Christmas.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Dave-the-rave]

Maybe it's because good old axes can be found for a few quid at boot fairs etc so a new GB is quite an outlay in comparison. There's not many really good knives at boot fairs though.

Maybe it's because it can look bad enough sitting at home in yer pyjamas fondling a new knife but axes and pyjamas could lead to divorce and/or the nut house.

There's a lot of good tools around for under £50 but we here in Britain do the ''Ya get what ya pay for'' thing so cheap is often considered guff compare to a more expensive alternative.

Maybe a lot of folks don't see knives as tools...they see something else maybe. Maybe I'm just tired. I wouldn't spend £100+ on a screw driver though.

 

[Haggis]

Thank you for the answers, and the advice on PJ's and axes. Most of my axes, other than the two GB's, were bought a flea markets, yard sales, or local hardware stores, and they have served me extremely well over the last 50 odd years. My favorite fixed blade knife is one I bought for $5.50 American in 1974; it is fashioned on the old Marbles Woodcraft pattern, and it was marked "Made in Solingen" on the blade. I use a knife every day for something, but if I'm afield and have a small axe or hatchet, I'll use it more, and more abusively, than my knife. Still, simply by way of musing, it is odd to me how many reviews I've read by bloggers and such experts who on one hand mention the high price of certain axes while remaining undaunted by a "bushcraft" knife at quite a high price. I think I bought the GB's simply to have bought something nice, for certainly a cheap axe or hatchet from a local hardware would easily attend my needs during the brief periods I'm "out there".

 

[Toddy]

There's something kind of special about using a 'good' tool though, not just one that will do.

I'm an archaeologist, and it's the one tool that is so often found in graves. A small belt knife. From the mesolithic right through to the present, those little at hand knives are found among the personal belongings. Men, women, even some children went to their graves with their prized possessions....and mind, many of those knives were expensive items in the past too...bronze must have shone and been coveted like the utmost bling when it was first known.


Later mesolithic in Denmark for instance.
Vedbaek, Denmark (c.6000 years ago) is in an area well known for Mesolithic settlement. Seventeen graves are known, in rectangular or oval pits, most containing single burials but also some multiples. Most burials were extended on their backs. One grave contained a young woman and newborn baby. The woman had c.190 teeth of red deer and wild boar around her head and another fifty tooth pendants around her hips, with several rows of perforated snail shells. The child had a flint blade at the waist and lay on a swan's wing. This could suggest hereditary status, but there are other interpretations.
There's another site there where two women were buried each with a knife at their waists and a man with five knives in his goods.

Neolithic in N. Ireland
Neolithic flint blades, found in the interior of the Tirnony Dolmen (Maghera, Northern Ireland) was likely left with the body of an individual who was buried there 5,500 years ago. Archaeologists excavating the ancient tomb say "it's the best find of the dig so far".
The 4.5cm long, 1cm wide knife blade made from translucent flint - in pristine condition - suggests the tomb was not 'excavated' in the 18th or 19th centuries by antiquarians who frequently looted the artefacts but rarely recorded or published their work. There is no trace of the handle of the knife, which was probably made from an organic material which has decayed.

Chalcolithic
http://finds.org.uk/bronzeage/objects/knife

Bronze Age,
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9090604

and those are just a minute sample of the finds.

Earliest signs we find of 'humanity' are fire and tools. The knife is just one of the most useful tools

Toddy

 

[philaw]

I think the point about how much they get used is a good one. Also, people who are into bushcraft just tend to like knives, so will spend money on them. Hobbies don't need to make sense. The old story about Nessmuk going through a ton of hassle to get his custom hatchet is from a time and place where he was going to rely on it for his life, which is less applicable now. Likewise the woodlore knife looks heavy and overbuilt to me, but I'd also want something like that if going on expedition to somewhere isolated.

 

[Haggis]

I do suppose human have, over the thousands of years since they were able to create the first sharp edge on a rock or bone, developed a bit of a knife fetish. I've was a wood worker most of my life, working in green wood; an axe is/was something I simply couldn't have done without. Even now, retired, I burn wood to heat my home which causes me to keep several sorts axes at arms length for splitting firewood or kindling. But, if man, and bushcrafters, do have some sort of innate desire to have a fine knife, or several, I can perhaps understand why 200 units of money is may not too much to pay for a knife, but 100 units of money might be far too much to pay for an axe.

 

[Toddy]

Look at the prices of watches A modern one for under a tenner will keep just as good time as one at £1,000....ah but, it doesn't scream quality
Very few would spend £1K on a clock though.

M

 

[British Red]

I do confess to being similarly mystified Haggis. There are thousands of "stock removal" knife makers, but very few of them can forge an axe and properly drift an eye. I also agree that in many ways I can see the value of a "good" axe as much, if not more, than a "good knife". Living the way I do though means an axe gets used hard a great deal and is a vital part of my life. A good one means I am not bent over after a few hours of using it.

 

[Toddy]

How much was your most expensive axe though ?

I really admire good craftsmanship, and I think it'd be good to have the opinion of folks who make both knives and axes on the thread.
There are some truly excellent axesmiths, but like knives, most aren't benchmade or finished. One of those axes still costs more than a similar production knife though.

Different when it comes to benchmade knives and the axesmith (like Cegga)'s work.

I have three axes, but I have ooooh welll, let's just say I have many more knives

M

 

[British Red]

How much was your most expensive axe though ?

I really admire good craftsmanship, and I think it'd be good to have the opinion of folks who make both knives and axes on the thread.
There are some truly excellent axesmiths, but like knives, most aren't benchmade or finished. One of those axes still costs more than a similar production knife though.

M

The most expensive was £200 - but that was with two spare handles and international shipping. Some of the ones Cegga made were ridiculously cheap.

I am happy to pay as much for an axe as most people would for a knife - but I was agreeing with Haggis sentiment

why do so many bushcraft folk refer to an axe, such as Gransfors Bruks, as "expensive", yet a knife at twice that cost is only just becoming expensive

I think we don't value the axe makers art highly enough (and the saw makers art come to that - and yes, I have "custom" saws as well

 

[mrcharly]

Hmm - my most used knife is a SAK, always in my bag.

I have a mora 106 and a blade from Dave Budd that get used whenever I do woodwork. The mora gets used a lot on household woodwork because it is no big deal if it gets a damaged blade.

I have an adze and an axe that each cost considerably more than any knife I've ever owned, but much less than £100!

IMO the knives that are very expensive are bought because they are more portable and can be used and kept pristine. An axe, by its nature, gets more abuse.

When I get my workshop and a block to work on, I think I'll be dropping hints about a small carving axe, I think.

 

[Haggis]

My GB Wildlife hatchet is my most expensive axe, followed closely by a GB Small Forest Axe. Among my knives, my favorite knifes, those I actually use: I have a German Eye brand trapper and a Remington trapper, both of which cost about $35 American in the '80's. I skinned literally countless foxes, rabbits, and all manner of other game with them, not counting everyday work. They are showing noticeable wear and, after 30 years, are about to be retired. As to fixed blade knives, I have a Gerber "Gator", a gift from a daughter that has for the most part replaced my old Solingen made stag handled Woodcraft clone. The Gator is stainless, rubber handled, and bullet proof from the stand point of maintenance. I think Gator's new are about $60, or about half the cost of a GB Wildlife Hatchet. Axes are different, they are made to be abused, to a degree. I pound nails and drive stakes with their poles. I chop wood, I split wood, I hew shapes in wood. It seems that with an axe, the handle is nigh as important as the bit itself. If the head doesn't hang correctly, the axe is awkward and clumsy. If the head isn't shaped correctly, the axe is worthless. Even a very cheap knife an be made sharp enough to function on the short term, between sharpenings, but a poorly made axe head, poorly fitted to a poorly shaped helve, is pure horror to use, even for the short term. This might in part explain my puzzlement over the issue of cost of knives and axes. Stone age man could easy skin any sort of beast with a small fragment of sharpened flint, but a good axe was priceless. I don't see that things have changed all that much when it comes to the working end of things, but certainly now knives, (modern sharpened flint), are frequently seen to be worth much more than a good axe. Do pardon my rambling on. I am enjoying the responses from users of both knives and axes.

 

[Toddy]

It's the tool kit mentality

In the pre wood clearing early farming times an axe was a butchery tool, and if one considers the greenstone axes, something of a bling item

I reckon there are fewer bad axes than there are hmmmm knives, tbh. I agree the helve makes a tremendous difference...on one contract HS commissioned a series of bronze axe heads for me to show and tell and we did have a play around with them too From flat to flanged to socketed.....and no axes are made and helved that way now in the West....but those tools were all very, very good indeed. Didn't work as our 'chopping' axes do, but then they weren't steel. They were still very effective even if getting used to the different work style did take a bit of work.

At the end of the day the price can only reflect the price people are prepared to pay. I reckon more knives are bought; I know I certainly have more than I do axes....and I still see knives that I fancy having, but I don't think there's another axe I want.
I'm not alone in that.
An axe is generally, for most folk, a decent tool but their knife is a bit more immediately in their hand and sight, iimmc.

Each to their own; I don't do much carving, if I need to take down trees I find a saw, I don't burn wood to heat my home, so day to day the axe sits idle. I still wouldn't like to be without one (at least) though and I did spend considerably more on my knives than on the axes.

M

 

[ozzy1977]

I funds allowed I would have no problem with spending a decent wodge on a knife or an axe, but there does seem to be a line over which you pay for the name more then the knife.