knife amnesty

[nickg]

And, frankly, is there not more to bushcraft than knives?

I think most everybody here would agree with you on that point. I dont see knives as the end product of bushcraft - just a practically indispensible tool. But what bushcraft IS all about is bieng able to excersise a certain level of freedom. Not just to walk, but to think and to go about without worrying overly about whether your clothes look right or you kit is just so etc.
Carrying a knife, ANY knife or edged or pointed tool, is in the eyes of the judicial system. committing the offence of carrying an offensive weapon ( heavy emphasis on those last two words). It doesnt matter about the length, fixed or folding, lock, design intention, ANYTHING, it is an offence in the eyes of the judge. There are mitigations that may be accepted, eg appropriate with occupation, activity etc., but the onus is on the perpetrator (defendant) to argue these mitigations CONVINCINGLY to the judge or magistrate. You are in effect GUILTY unless to can convince otherwise. This is IMHO the point that causes the animosity. The fact that no mitigation will be accepted for ANY knife that locks open (the safest kind of folder I believe). The fact that any carry that is not concealed (hidden, furtive) will require the strongest argument. This is what irritates - the implication that just having one on your person labels you some sort of irresponsible thug or mindless hooligan.

 

[SowthEfrikan]

It's not just about knives - it's about being forced to give up a personal freedom.

 

[pierre girard]

Not directly on subject, but:

At the book store, yesterday - found myself in the Brit history aisle. Leafed through a very interesting book by a female Brit author who'd set out to prove the efficacy of Brit gun laws - only to change the whole direction of her thesis when she found that the safest era of Brit history had been accompanied by NO gun laws whatsoever.

Sorry, don't remember her name, but I believe I will be returning to the book store to purchase said volume.

Also, found this interesting tidbit on the web:

http://guncontrolaustralia.org/un_report.htm

 

[pothunter]

Hi Pierre

I am currently renewing my shotgun certificate and firearms certificate that run coterminous (why can't they say together) the only amendment is the photographs, I now look more distinguished. I have to provide 8 photographs one is scanned and printed onto the certificates and placed on my file, what happens to the other seven?

I have to find two referees to vouch for my sanity, these must be upstanding pillars of society Justic of the Peace, Vicar or other such, Doctor etc. JP's will not sign the forms, I keep all religion and doctors at a safe distance, when I advised the local plod of this they said 'anyone will do who has not got a criminal record and is on the voters list' !

This whole process will take months, does it add to public safety, figuers for firearms related crime say no.
By jumping thru thier hoopes I am then considered a fit and propper person to have in my possesion a selection of potentialy lethal weapons but not a breach loading pistol, unless I wish to use it to dispatch wounded beasts.

I wonder who is running this asylum, the inmates or the warders.

Rant over, I don't feel any better.

Here we are latest stupid reported incident:
Gamekeeper returning from feeding newly arrived pheasant chicks is stopped by plod becaues he is not wearing his seat belt.
Please step out of the car sir, what is that attached to your belt, a knife, may I see the knife, oh a lock knife, you'r knicked mate.
By the way how do I close the knife.
Aforesaid game keeper then informs our flat footed friend that he has a shotgun in a sleeve behind the rear seat and that the two items are related as part of the tools of his job.
Do you have a certificate for the shotgun, yes, well thats OK.
He is then taken home in handcuffs and allowed to put the shotgun away.
Taken to the local police stn, and after spending some time in a cell he is given the choice, accept a 'police caution' or be charged with having 'unlawful posesion of a knife in a public place in contarvention of bla bla bla .....'
He opts for the caution, this is now on his record, what happens when it comes time to renew his certificates?

To much ranting, time for a brew.

Oh for a constitution that can be defended.

God I'm depressed.

 

[BorderReiver]

Here we are latest stupid reported incident:
Gamekeeper returning from feeding newly arrived pheasant chicks is stopped by plod because he is not wearing his seat belt.
Please step out of the car sir, what is that attached to your belt, a knife, may I see the knife, oh a lock knife, you're knicked mate.
By the way how do I close the knife.
Aforesaid game keeper then informs our flat footed friend that he has a shotgun in a sleeve behind the rear seat and that the two items are related as part of the tools of his job.
Do you have a certificate for the shotgun, yes, well thats OK.
He is then taken home in handcuffs and allowed to put the shotgun away.
Taken to the local police stn, and after spending some time in a cell he is given the choice, accept a 'police caution' or be charged with having 'unlawful possession of a knife in a public place in contravention of bla bla bla .....'
He opts for the caution, this is now on his record, what happens when it comes time to renew his certificates?

To much ranting, time for a brew.

Oh for a constitution that can be defended.

God I'm depressed.

If he had gone for the charge the Public Prosecutor would have had a laugh and sent him on his way rejoicing.There is no way they would have pursued this case.

Bugger,I'm depressed now.

 

[pierre girard]

Found this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/12/07/ixopinion.html

Such stuff is absurd. US view on this is descended from Anglo Saxon hearthright "A man's home is his castle." Of course the Normans didn't think too much of that. Here, a citizen may employ deadly force to protect self, or another, from great bodily harm or death - and to prevent the commission of a crime in one's place of abode.

As the article states "Getting your head blown off for a $70 TV set isn't worth it"

Would I kill a burglar I found in my house? Depends.

I guess the burglar would have to examine how lucky he felt that day.

 

[Tengu]

Well, part of the problem in the UK is we do not respect money.

if a person is robbed, they get the blame for being wealthy and attacting thieves.

(I kid you not)

 

[scoops_uk]

Taken to the local police stn, and after spending some time in a cell he is given the choice, accept a 'police caution' or be charged with having 'unlawful posesion of a knife in a public place in contarvention of bla bla bla .....'
He opts for the caution, this is now on his record, what happens when it comes time to renew his certificates?

This is a big problem a caution is tantamount a conviction but without a court or a fair hearing. Perfectly lawful people are persuaded to take a caution as it's a quick 'out' to an embarrassing situation of being in a police station. It's too late afterwards when they find out they have a 'record'.

My advice is if your initial explanation is rejected and you are arrested say nothing after the arresting officer's caution (i.e. I'm arresting you...you have the right to remain silent) until you've had legal advice and then sit the situation out till it goes to court, if it ever gets that far! It's only the local magistrate not the Old Bailey!

Don't go admitting offences (i.e. accepting a caution) when you are innocent of the alleged crime. The burden of proof lies with the police and a fella on his own in the woods carving by a campfire is very different to a bloke in a city pub with a stanley knife.

Just my opinion.

scoops

 

[swamp donkey]

Must agree with Border reiver, If people choose not to defend their rights. then the Police can only think that they are in the right.

I always have lots of knifes (folders, fixed, lockers, stanley), axes, saws etc , etc in my van. have been stopped lots of times (pikey looking van.) . the last time was 2 weeks ago whilst taking my daughters and there mates to a local pop festerval . Admittly I did have to get the inspector over to clarify "Lawful purpose" to the young PC. but was not held up for more than 10 mins intotal. and gaily went off to work after delivering youths.

Practise being polite is my advice always.

 

[Mikey P]

I think most everybody here would agree with you on that point. I dont see knives as the end product of bushcraft - just a practically indispensible tool. But what bushcraft IS all about is bieng able to excersise a certain level of freedom. Not just to walk, but to think and to go about without worrying overly about whether your clothes look right or you kit is just so etc.

But what you appear to be saying is that you cannot practice bushcraft without a knife? I agree that the knife is an important tool (gross understatement, perhaps) but, if you look at a huge proportion of posts on this forum, we as a community are obsessed with knives! To an outsider, who does not appreciate the thinking and ideas behind bushcraft, it appears that bushcraft enthusiasts want to carry a knife in a public place and set fire to things.

OK, I've generalised but can you all see what I am saying? I don't want to be seen as the heretic on this website but this slightly odd focus on knives will clearly worry members of the public who are ignorant of what we try to achieve.

We do not live in a vacuum. This site is viewable by anyone with a computer and, whilst I am proud to be associated with 'BushcraftUK', which gives me a voice and a focus, we have to be aware of public perception. I for one do not want to be lumped in with people who talk about the lack of personal freedom because they cannot carry a fixed blade in their local high street.

For another angle on this, let's take airsoft. Airsoft 'weapons' are designed and manufactured to look exactly like the real thing, even though they fire plastic ball bearings. A good M4 airsoft copy feels very similar to a real M4 and - at a distance - I would not be able to tell the difference. But airsoft enthusiasts complain that they are frequently seen in a bad light, as 'gun nut wannabees', even though airsoft, an extension of paintballing, is as legitimate a past time as bushcraft. Think about the public perception and stop complaining that you can't carry a knife without being arrested. The law is the law. Would you condone the carrying of an AK-47 airsoft copy in public? No, I didn't think so.

And for those who feel that UK gun laws are too strict: I have served in Iraq more than once over the last three years. Just about everyone there has a gun and I don't consider it a safer place.

We have the same arguments about knives, over and over again and I admit, I've been part of them. It is our responsibility - everyone who uses this forum - as bushcraft enthusiasts/participants/whatever to present a positive image to the public. One incident tars us all with the same brush and I'm really worried.

 

[soa_uk]

Carrying a knife, ANY knife or edged or pointed tool, is in the eyes of the judicial system. committing the offence of carrying an offensive weapon ( heavy emphasis on those last two words). It doesnt matter about the length, fixed or folding, lock, design intention, ANYTHING, it is an offence in the eyes of the judge. There are mitigations that may be accepted, eg appropriate with occupation, activity etc., but the onus is on the perpetrator (defendant) to argue these mitigations CONVINCINGLY to the judge or magistrate.

I'm sorry, but this is just plain wrong.
Certainly in Scotland, at least, the relevant piece of legislation is
section 49 of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 , which states

Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995

Offence of having in public place article with blade or point.

49. – (1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence and liable–

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both; and

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine or both.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed.

(3) This section does not apply to a folding pocket knife if the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed three inches (7.62 centimetres).

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in the public place.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he had the article with him–

(a) for use at work;

(b) for religious reasons; or

(c) as part of any national costume.

6) Where a person is convicted of an offence under subsection (1) above the court may make an order for the forfeiture of any article to which the offence relates, and any article forfeited under this subsection shall (subject to section 193 of the FN1 Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 (suspension of forfeiture etc, pending appeal)) be disposed of as the court may direct.

(7) In this section "public place" includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.​

You'll see para 3 "if the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed three inches" shows this section does not apply.

You *cannot* be charged under this section.

Don't encourage hysteria.

 

[bogflogger]

Likewise in the rest of the UK, The Criminal Justice Act 1988 Sec.139 allows for carrying a Non Locking Folder with a blade of 3" without any need to justify carrying it.

It also makes provision for carrying a Locking or Fixed Bladed knife, provided that you have a "Reasonable Reason."

 

[SowthEfrikan]

That's a great idea - think about the public perception, and educate the public as they seem to have jumped to some rather whacky conclusions regarding knives. I had no idea things were this bad in the UK, I'm feeling rather lucky to be in the US where personal freedoms are not only cherished, but vocally defended. One of the early Americans, either Franklin or Jefferson, said something along the lines that those who gave up freedom for security deserved neither. With luck the public will start thinking a little more carefully about this knife thang. As for one incident tarring everyone - well, LOL, the brain dead do enjoy their stereotypes. From what I've read here people seem pretty level headed and are not going to go out and attack others. With knives. Or anything else.

PS Great article by Mark Steyn.
PPS Not calling anyone on this board brain dead, just anyone foolish enough to jump to such a ridiculous conclusion that everyone with a knife is tainted.

 

[chewie]

We are again going over old ground.

Bogflogger is correct - in fact, s139 CJA88 was brought in precisely because most knives are not offensive weapons per se, they are merely tools like screwdrivers and hammers and only become offensive weapons when used or intended for use as such. This entire thread explains it all in great depth.

Those knives specifically defined as offensive weapons:
Autos [flick knives, gravity knives and switchblades]
Stealth knives [designed to be undetectable by metal detectors]
Balisongs [butterfly knives]
Push Daggers
Belt buckle knives
Disguised knives [i.e. a knife designed to look like something else]
Swordsticks

Those knives I would personally avoid out of common sense, and aren't very bushcrafty anyway:
Assisted openers
Swords
Daggers
Fighting knives - e.g. Fairburn Sykes
Rambo wannabe stuff
Modelling / craft / 'stanley' type knives, unless I'm using them for work.

The Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 specifies the autos, the rest are specified by s141 Criminal Justice Act 1988 and various statutory instruments [1] [2] [3]. CPS Guidance is here.

Knives and Offensive Weapons are two fundamentally different things. That's why s139 CJA88 came in.

The fact is that a right given freely to all is a right given to a drunk 18-year-old hooligan at 1.00am outside your local pub, who thinks you might be looking at his girlfriend / at him / whatever. s139 CJA88 means that anyone with a knife, other than a non-locking sub-3" folding pocket knife, must show a good reason for having it. It's that simple, and it's nothing to be afraid of - unless you don't have the good reason.

Let us try to retain some grip on reality and common sense when discussing these matters, please???

 

[Toddy]

The *public perceptions* thing is interesting. From this side it really causes very little concern for individuals. By and large we are a law abiding country, but our press *needs* something to scream about so they play up any incident. Life in the UK is not bad, it's very comfortable for virtually all of us. The actual figures show we live in a society with a very low police;general public ratio & with very little actual crime. Assault isn't common, that's why we make such a fuss about those that *do* occur.

The concept of taking a gun to some idiot just 'cos he's broken into your home is a pathetic excuse to us to take someone's life.

Frankly I'm rather glad that I don't live in a country with a gun culture so embedded in the national psyche that they become a *necessity* that has to be justified for civilization to thrive

Knives are a problem among the young men of our cities and housing estates; but as has already been said, the vast majority of incidents are of the use of domestic knives not the use of the more specialised tools that we use.
The knife amnesties have just brought the topic into mainstream social discussion; but you can bet your boots that if someone sees a teenager with a knife now, they'll phone the police and the Press!

Toddy
"This old world ain't so bad a place as some folks try to make it;
but whether good or whether bad, depends on how you take it "

 

[bogflogger]

Absolutely Right Chewie, and if I may say so, your own contribution in the "Reasons for carrying a knife in the UK" thread, increased my knowledge of some of the more arcane areas of Legislation regarding carry/transport of knives.

Anyone concerned about this, could do a lot worse then reading that thread from start to finish.

 

[Toddy]

Absolutely Right Chewie, and if I may say so, your own contribution in the "Reasons for carrying a knife in the UK" thread, increased my knowledge of some of the more arcane areas of Legislation regarding carry/transport of knives.

Anyone concerned about this, could do a lot worse then reading that thread from start to finish.

Hear! Hear!
atb,
Toddy

 

[chewie]

Thanks!

 

[Shing]

The right to carry a knife in an appropriate setting is a very important right and should no be given up lightly. The laws in this country which is a reflection of society has to balance the rights of the individual against the rights and wants of the public.

The knife amnesty is of course a transparent joke. Approx 90,000 knives were handed in. There are about 15 million households in this country, lets say each one has 6 knives in it such as kitchen knives, craft knives, pruning knives etc. Which means there are 90 million knives in the country. 90,000 represent 0.1% of all the knives in this country which means 99.9% of knives in this country have not been handed in.

I think we can all see how effective getting rid of one tenth of one percent of the knives in circulation is. Also no attempt has been made to stop knives being widely avialable. Knives are beening sold in supermarkets, car boots sales, hardware shops and many other places. Strangly, noone friom the police, media or government have pointed this obvious fact out.

I think the police in appearing in photos with lots of knives handed in have undermined their impartiality and credibility in my eyes.

We should also not fall into the easy trap of assuming some knives are "good" and some are "bad". They are neither and it is rather niave to think they have some sort of moral content.

 

[Toddy]

.......

We should also not fall into the easy trap of assuming some knives are "good" and some are "bad". They are neither and it is rather niave to think they have some sort of moral content.

While I agree that in themselves knives have no morality, I do question the reasons for the creations and sale of the utterly useless, apart from looking suitably able to carve someone up with malice, type knife that is still being sold in many outdoor stores for under a tenner.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Massive-Hunti...9QQihZ009QQcategoryZ16042QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stunning-Dive...5QQihZ008QQcategoryZ36269QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and wow it's fully intended for *decoration purposes " too.

Now, in view of the fact that these knives are still freely available, and appear to be breeding tell me again that our police are over reacting........personally I feel it's a dreadful indictment on our society that our police need to wear armour at all let alone that we now accept it as normal.
Hopefuly the 'fashion' end of the knife market will die a death and let ordinary folks who use them as tools, value them as collectables, or have forgotten that they're in with the camping kit, get on with life in peace.

Cheers,
Toddy