introducing pine martens

[jerv]

Just a thought really,
was walking to work today and saw about 30 grey squirrels. I walk through woods on the way to work. I got to thinking about natural predation as a means of erradicating the little buggers. The woods i walk through are "managed" by the woodland trust and like most woodland trust woods are simply buzzing with squirrels.
As a (presumably) non comercial venture i don't suppose there is the financial incentive to kill them and as the woods are used by the public it would be tricky to have shooting or trapping anyway.
As far as i know Pine martens are the only native that kills grey squirrels and was wondering what BCUK people thought about introducing them into other areas of the UK (helping them recolonise basically) in order to curb the squirrel tide.

 

[torjusg]

Have to get the fox population down a little too then. According to what I have heard, they are the primary predator of pine martens.

There are lots of pine marten where I come from. That is evident through tracks in the snow etc. I have seen one only once though, when he ventured into our garden and got chased up into a tre by a cat.

Since it is a natural. it seems like a very good idea to re-introduce it. But is there enough old forest habitat in Britain? Something the pine marten require to thrive.

 

[moocher]

i would be for it.there are loads in the forest of dean,forestry commision say they havent the time/money to deal with the problem.yet the debarking is affecting their profits surely.and the squirrels are killing nestlings/egg stealing and the birds have enough to cope with the magpies.

 

[Stuart]

I'm confused

if I read this correctly, what your saying is that English woodland currently has too many grey squirrels, an introduced species which is killing off our native red squirrels and effecting the native bird numbers by eating nestling and eggs.

So you propose introducing the pine martin, which eats grey squirrels (and of course red squirrels too) as well as mice, voles, rabbits, frogs, insects, eggs, birds and well just about anything else they can sink their teeth into

In doing so we might successfully reduce the squirrel numbers but further compound the declining bird number problem, which was the reason why we wanted to reduce the squirrels?

I'm not sure I understand

 

[torjusg]

I don't know exactly what he means, but pine marten prefer to eat squirrels as long as there are not easier foods (like pheasant eggs perhaps, but that is an alien specie ).

But I don't think you have enough old forest for reintroducing them. They don't like moving out of the forest, so patches of forest are unlikely to work.

 

[spamel]

I think trapping and shooting is the only way to keep grey tree rat numbers down, we have already messed up the natural balance by introducing species from other countries, messing about and playing god will always have a bad impact on the life in the local area as is evident in the red squirrels' plight. I love pine martens, don't get me wrong, but they should be left where they thrive and not be reintroduced to other areas where they will be considered a mischief. If they move there themselves, naturally, then that is fine and it is meant to be so.

Also, they love to chew on car electrical cables, so you can imagine the bad press they will get a few years down the line.

 

[torjusg]

Also, they love to chew on car electrical cables, so you can imagine the bad press they will get a few years down the line.

Nope, wrong specie. The one chewing on cars is the beech marten (Martes foina).

 

[spamel]

I remember watching pine martens on guard when I was posted in Hameln and they were jumping all over the cars. Are you sure they don't go for the cables aswell?

 

[moocher]

i didnt know martins ate bird eggs.but the grey squirrel does need controlling and a natural preadator would be easiest solution.

 

[torjusg]

Pretty sure they are beech martens. They are much more accustomed to humans than pine martens.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Martes_foina.html

 

[jerv]

I'm confused

if I read this correctly, what your saying is that English woodland currently has too many grey squirrels, an introduced species which is killing off our native red squirrels and effecting the native bird numbers by eating nestling and eggs.

So you propose introducing the pine martin, which eats grey squirrels (and of course red squirrels too) as well as mice, voles, rabbits, frogs, insects, eggs, birds and well just about anything else they can sink their teeth into

In doing so we might successfully reduce the squirrel numbers but further compound the declining bird number problem, which was the reason why we wanted to reduce the squirrels?

I'm not sure I understand

I dind't really mention the birds. I am more concerned with the effects that the squirrels have on broad leaf woodland.
I may well be wrong here, but squirrels occupying a lower place in the food chain presumably produce more offspring than a pine marten which is higher up. Therefore without pine martens (or other squirrel eaters) we have a larger number of bird eating mammals than with them even though pine martens also eat birds.
where i live there is more than enough woodland for the martens to live in. Britian is fairly wooded in rural areas. And as for the martens getting here how long would it take?? How long did the roe deer take to move down?

 

[swyn]

I could scribe a long rant on private woodland managers thoughts on the Woodland trust (and other charities) atitude to greys but I would probably be banned or in the least reprimanded for non PC comments.
Simple though. If you want reds AND deciduous woodland of any resemblance of todays ageing stands, the grey has to be eradicated by ALL means (trap, shoot and warferin).
Most of these charities have all but given up on this task as their money comes from people who think greys are 'cute'. This attitude means that it is almost impossible to get young Oak, Beech and other species beyond 20 years old without serious damage. Consequently there is an even bigger gap of age difference than there ever was. Even with the serious lack of planting between and after the two wars.
You can now shoot me down.
Swyn.
800 shot and trapped last year!

 

[spamel]

When I get back to UK I will do my bit to eradicate the pesky grey, that's one illegal immigrant that should be gotten rid of sharpish!

 

[Never2L8]

There are already wild populations of Pine Martens in the UK. In Scotland and the New Forest at least and probably other areas.

 

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

Beautiful idea, I especially like how you thought about a native predator rather than some trap or pesticide. Sounds like you Brits have more affection for your wildlife than my fellow Canadians and Americans...

 

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

I could scribe a long rant on private woodland managers thoughts on the Woodland trust (and other charities) atitude to greys but I would probably be banned or in the least reprimanded for non PC comments.
Simple though. If you want reds AND deciduous woodland of any resemblance of todays ageing stands, the grey has to be eradicated by ALL means (trap, shoot and warferin).
Most of these charities have all but given up on this task as their money comes from people who think greys are 'cute'. This attitude means that it is almost impossible to get young Oak, Beech and other species beyond 20 years old without serious damage. Consequently there is an even bigger gap of age difference than there ever was. Even with the serious lack of planting between and after the two wars.
You can now shoot me down.
Swyn.
800 shot and trapped last year!

I have no problem with you killing as many greys as you can... on one condition... you send me the pelts

 

[Voivode]

The human species has a proven track record of not anticipating the long term effects of its actions. In fact, it has been argued that when we try to make things better, we often make them far worse in unintended ways.

Now, that's not to say nothing should be done. I'm anti-poisoning as the poison enters the food chain when the dead creature is eaten by a predator that then dies. Trap, shoot, whatever. Adding more invasive species to deal with an invasive species is, in my mind, backwards. You'll probably never be rid of them now that they're established, but that shouldn't stop you from trying.

 

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

The human species has a proven track record of not anticipating the long term effects of its actions. In fact, it has been argued that when we try to make things better, we often make them far worse in unintended ways.

Now, that's not to say nothing should be done. I'm anti-poisoning as the poison enters the food chain when the dead creature is eaten by a predator that then dies. Trap, shoot, whatever. Adding more invasive species to deal with an invasive species is, in my mind, backwards. You'll probably never be rid of them now that they're established, but that shouldn't stop you from trying.

....I thought Pine Martins were native to the UK...

 

[Jodie]

... people who think greys are 'cute'.

Oh dear, that's a bit me

However I like to flatter myself that I'm a sucker for a good argument
and you make some good points that I'd not really considered before.

The ones that lived at my parents' house were quite cute though. We
used to have a family of them that would come to the back door
and get fed by hand. Also there was a lovely little albino one in Ruskin
park in south London. OK, enough of the squirrels

 

[Voivode]

....I thought Pine Martins were native to the UK...

Hrm. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the discussion was about introducing an exogenous species to the ecosystem. On closer read, there was some talk about them being re-introduced early in the thread.

Well, I still stand behind my statement even though it might not apply in this instance. Reintroducing the species may not produce the expected result (Eating gray squirrels); They might provide that environmental pressure on the Red Squirrel that pushes them over the edge, obliterating them. It's impossible to say until you do it, unfortunately.