interesting debate !

[retired member need4wilderness]

Hi all i think iv got a good debate to start here at the expense of myself due to inexperience off the Triangia multi-fuel. Iv only used gas stoves & open fires to cook , heat etc. Im interested in the triangia multi-fuel for the triangia but would like to find out a few things which could lead to a good debate which im sure a lot off people will be interested to know.
which fuel lasts the longest per litre as it implies uses all sorts i.e gas, kerosene , meths any one know this answer ? also any comments about doea it put out as much heat as others or not ?
Now here`s the second queastion iv got the silly one but important never the less , i watched a utube vid with the exped venus 111 im interested in & the finish guy had the multi fuesl flared up in side as it was -10 freezing outside , the bottle was in foreign as well as upside down on the tent floor so after i turned my head upside down (A PAIN IN THE NECK) i copied it down & googled it , it was in french said... gas bottle so it was white gas kept tent really warm but can you use like meths either on the multi fuel or burner inside like his gas ? im thinking no as when it starts up the flame is really high even though the venus is a large tent . im sure me & many would find this great advice for any one attempting it thank you to any one answering my advice needed in this important matter for me to ube in the know.
http://youtu.be/sMz0aMaAUiE

 

[para106]

For what it's worth, I'm trying to keep to paraffin for my cooking & main light with a back up of a Trangia. Petrol is probably the cheapest fuel at the moment but I don't care for the fumes etc. I'm tending to use an Optimus 111 or Primus Omnifuel most of the time, Ok it's meths to prime but that's why a Trangia as backup. Light is a Vapalux M320. Not sure of Coleman fuel or white gas derivitives.Extremely flammable - even the vapour if you get an unnoticed leak. There are some far more knowledgeable than me on this subject who, I'm sure, will have more to add. Cheers - good subject!!!!!

 

[horsevad]

(...)

which fuel lasts the longest per litre as it implies uses all sorts i.e gas, kerosene , meths any one know this answer ? also any comments about doea it put out as much heat as others or not ?

(...)

The energy density for a combustible material can be looked up in any physics data book.

One liter diesel contains 38.6 MJ (mega Joules)
One liter of gasoline/petrol contains 32.6 MJ
One liter of ethanol contains 21.1 MJ
One liter of methanol contains 15.8 MJ

One kilogram of wood contains between 16 and 20 MJ, depending on a lot of different parameters.
One kilogram of propane contains 46.4 MJ, while one liter of propane contains 25.3 MJ

Beware of comparing units in kilograms and liters for the various materials.

BTW, one MJ equals 0,28 kWh, if you prefer to use this unit for the calculations.

---

The energy density is just one part of the equation - the other part is the energy efficiency of the used cooking apparatus.

//Kim Horsevad

 

[ged]

This has been covered quite thoroughly on the forum in several threads. Try using your favourite search engine to search just BCUK and see what you can find.

There's a table of energy densities of some common liquid fuels here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline

To put it simply there's not a lot in it for petrol, diesel, paraffin, Aspen, etc. but alcohols e.g. meths only have about 60% of the energy that the others have. All these fuels are less dense than water, so a litre of fuel will weigh about 700 to 800 grammes. My Optimus 111B puts out about 3kilowatts on full power and at that it's burning about 4 grammes of fuel per minute. You won't get 3kW out of a typical meths stove.

Quite a few makes of stove will run on a range of fuels such as petrol, paraffin, diesel but not usually also alcohol. Coleman stoves are only really able to burn Coleman fuel, Aspen or petrol.

Alcohols are far and away the most pleasant of the fuels to handle, they're miscible with water (so you can sprinkle meths on damp twigs and it won't just run off like oily fuels will) and you don't need any moving parts to make an efficient burner -- just a couple of coke cans will do. Petrol and the heavier fuels need a pressurized feed.

The burners on pressure stoves produce a very hot flame and it's quite robust in wind. Alcohol flames are cooler and usually need some sort of a windbreak.

I have and use all kinds of stoves -- meths, petrol, paraffin and even a twig kettle. I love all (playing with) of them.

This evening I did a corned beef hash on the military Trangia, but for a change I tried it with a civvy burner from a swap that arrived this morning.

It was a good hash but it's left me feeling a bit thirsty.

It isn't a good idea to use any of these stoves in a tent. In the USA I think I read that about 30 people die every year from CO poisoning caused by camping stoves.

 

[retired member need4wilderness]

Hi all para for what its worth was worth it m8 their was two good info`s in that regarding the fuel & i noted , also checked out your wee blazers cheers bud !
horsevad & ged amazing ! Just the answers & guidance i was looking for in only two thread between you both thank you . I mean seems every vid on utube is more interested in time to boil water which is important gives an idea of the intensity but wondered about the consumption off fuel which is also just as important & this helps me descide as a newbi to these fuels which to chose from as very daunting when its time to use these toxic dangerouse fuels for a first time. All noted in the wee black book & go in more confidence now thanks to you both for those direct answers i was looking for boys IN YOUR DEBT! Geo

 

[retired member need4wilderness]

Hi ged/horsvad can i ask some more advice on fuels , iv read up on each & noted your safety concerns as seen how toxic these fuels are now.
im down to my 3 preferd fuels meths , methanol & kerosene (paraffin) i herd methanol is good as it burns hotter than meths ! but im edging to kerosene as you said it belongs to the petrolium bunch so i gather it will burn even hotter than methanol ? would this be a quick fuel for boiling times to the meths & methanol ?
About the fuel in the tent my reason for this is iv always wanted to experience the winter temps in scandinavia i.e sweden & finland not for any macho reasons but rather trying the skieing with the tobacan while hiking & seen lars monsen & an old hand from finland use white gas inside the tent to keep it warm as its fairly common over their in winter but agree with you carbon monoxide kills but america is a large populated country wich most culd be through carelesness . Do you think in real terms if i check evrything is tight , connected properly & new id be fairly ok to use the multi fuel gas inside to keep warm ?
thanks ged for any advice as noted you know all these fuels & are careful as you are aware off the safety very cued up their as you must make an effort to know how many people were victims which i appreciated safety first always but thinking being careful in evry way like i mentioned above would it be fair to say id be probably fine as tents are well ventilated now.

 

[PDA1]

Do NOT use any camping stove to keep warm in a tent. You would be inviting asphyxiation (carbon dioxide) or, more likely, poisoning due to carbon monoxide (CO) Methanol and alcohol are particularly dangerous in respect of CO . I would not even recommend cooking inside a closed up tent. You have to have good ventilation for the safe use of camping stoves in general. You really should only use the stove outside, or at the most in the porch/vestibule with the flap open. You also have to be really careful not to burn down the tent. Its not carelessness which kills, it is not appreciating the need for adequate ventilation. In addition, burning in the tent will create a large amount of water vapour which will lead to bad condensation unless there is a lot of ventilation. To keep warm, once you have finished hiking or working outside, get out of the wind and wear an extra layer of insulation. Wearing your sleeping bag as a cape would be good

 

[rik_uk3]

Nothing wrong with using a stove in a tent so long as you take great care and ensure ventilation; climbers, Antarctic and Arctic travellers do it all the time.

Petrol is very volatile I would stick to paraffin or gas. The Trangia with a burner mounted in them are extremely efficient, work very well and will save you fuel. To be honest I would use gas in a small tent and this setup. The new mix of propane/butane/isobutane works very well even in cold weather.

Get your stove and if your using liquid fuel practise lighting it until its second nature to you.

Above all be careful, its a great setup and one I might be using this weekend, I'll certainly have a paraffin stove working in the tent and under the chute.

 

[ged]

...im down to my 3 preferd fuels meths , methanol & kerosene (paraffin) i herd methanol is good as it burns hotter than meths ! but im edging to kerosene as you said it belongs to the petrolium bunch so i gather it will burn even hotter than methanol ? would this be a quick fuel for boiling times to the meths & methanol ?

A lot depends on how you will be using the stoves and fuels. For example some people will be setting up camp for days, getting the stove out and spending some time making it convenient to use, sheltered and safe. Then it will just sit there cranking out meals and brews. Other people will be cracking on at a pace and just want to plop the stove down and have a brew ASAP. Only you know how you will be using your stoves (like many of us you might finish up with more than one, for different types of use). In the early stages you will be learning about how you prefer to use them and which ones you prefer to use in what situations. It's worth spending time thinking about that sort of thing. When I'm out and about I hardly ever stop thinking about that sort of thing.

A lot depends on the physical arrangements of the burner and the container and any windbreak or shield that you may have. A windshield which encases the pot quite high up to guide the flame and hot gases around the pot can make a huge difference to the efficiency, reducing both the amount of fuel that you use and the boil times.

Rather less depends on how hot the flame is, but it can be an issue. My concern with the flame temperature is purely the carbon monoxide output. You need a hot flame to burn carbon monoxide (CO) to carbon dioxide (CO2). This is more efficient because burning CO to CO2 produces heat, and it reduces the risk of CO poisoning so it's a double win. As far as boil times go, the temperature of the flame is less important than the transfer of heat from the flame to what you're heating. For this to be efficient, basically you need a big surface area in contact with the flames and hot gas. There are some pots (such as Etapower) which have extra fins on them and I gather that they're very good but they look expensive to me for what they are. I've been thinking of making something for a long time but I have so many projects on the go that this one has never even made it to the back of an envelope.

About the fuel in the tent my reason for this is iv always wanted to experience the winter temps in scandinavia ...

My personal feeling is that safety issues aside, using your precious fuel to heat the tent is a terrible waste. As habitable spaces go, a tent is absolutely abysmal. The thermal properties of a tent are several orders of magnitude worse than those required for a habitable space under the building regulations. Why heat the tent when you can heat your sleeping bag, which is much much much better insulated? I take a couple of hot water bottles. I promise you that in a decent sleeping bag, that is more than you will ever need.

... agree with you carbon monoxide kills but america is a large populated country wich most culd be through carelesness .

Carelessness, and also ignorance.

Do you think in real terms if i check evrything is tight , connected properly & new id be fairly ok to use the multi fuel gas inside to keep warm ?

Define "fairly ok" please. If it's less than "I'd be prepared to trust my life to this setup" then I think you have your answer.

...safety first always but thinking being careful in evry way like i mentioned above would it be fair to say id be probably fine as tents are well ventilated now.

I'm not new to this. I've used stoves for over forty years. A couple of years ago, for the first and only time, my Optimus 111B malfunctioned. The whole thing went up in a ball of flames, right under my nose. When the safety valve on the fuel tank vented, as it is designed to do if the pressure exceeds a safe level, a jet of flaming fuel shot out of it in an arc about three metres wide.

This was outside, on the grass. The stove was in a safe place. I was able, with no fuss at all, simply to close the lid on the stove and let it burn itself out. I didn't go near it again until it was cool and obviously no longer dangerous.

What do you think would have happened if that had been in my tent?

 

[Paul_B]

CO is produced by the incomplete combustion of a fuel source I was always taught. Since no stove is going to be completely efficient you will always get CO and the risk of CO poisoning. Bear in mind CO has over 200 times the affinity to Haemoglobin that oxygen has. Even if it isn't dangerous you can experience headaches and generally not feel right. Trust me, I worked somewhere where there was a dangerous space heater in the shop floor below our offices. The CO produced got into the office I was in through an old, disused AC pipe hole out of the office. It collected but was only to a very low level (way less than safe levels in the workplace). We still got headaches and felt unwell. We had the equipment to test the air for SOx, NOx, CO2 and CO. It was only 29 - 35ppm too but as soon as it was turned off and dismantled and the air was clear the headaches ceased.

As said above the best way to stay warm is insulation of your body. Heating a tent is really just about heating the outside as the tent walls won't keep the heat in too well. Good down clothing and the ultimate resort of your sleeping bag is better than wasting fuel on a losing battle IMHO. Although it is done by some. Also eat some food before turning in as that also generates heat which good down clothing or sleeping bag will keep in better than a stove burning for heat in a thin walled tent. Just my opinion though.

IF you are going to cold region and did want to use a gas stove for its simplicity as said above the propane, butane, iso-butane mixes work well. My preferred brand is Primus but I avoid the next to useless Coleman gas cans (which some have had threading of the stove issues due to quality issues in production). Also consider a Coleman fyrestorm stove. It has a can holder which holds the can upside down for liquid feed which with the pre-burner enables colder conditions use than most gas stoves. Also a UL option is made by SOTO. It has a micro-regulator than improves its gas regulation and cold weather / altitude use. It comes in can top option but IIRC a remote can option which is better I reckon.

 

[retired member need4wilderness]

Had lots to decide their ! The conclusion is all three are right on their own grounds . Im going with rik-uk3 simply because he`s right as iv watched the best over the years expeditioners , climbers , hikers all professional even remember ( dam forget the guy in animal park doing a trip to south pole with two pro`s) & not to forget that 76 year old-hand hiker i mentioned who you just have to look at his clothes & gear to see how responsible he is and the way he talks on his hikes of the national-parks ( his link at bottom ) from finland.
if its all gloom to put a stove in a tent then why are all these men not DEAD ! they are all alive & well with many a comfortable warm tent due to a gas stove heating it up in the minus degree`s . Please dont take it wrong way as never said PDA1 & ged your wrong because i agree your not due to their is a chance off leeks , accidents (ged mentioned one) but to see men do it all their life & be okay has made me decide the gamble is worth it to keep comfortable in hideously freezing conditons ! Thanks for the confidence boost rik-uk & iv deffo more aware now off ventilation for sure.
So back to what i asked yes i know gas is best now also it can be controlled as soon as you lignite it , wanted to know if meths & paraffin could be used to (rik-uk03) has now answered that for me . yup never once was i gonna use petrol herd too many horror stories i said kerosene is this not paraffin ? also yeah ged already chose my option due to the loads off info about these days & thats the Triangia burner & mutli-fuel !!! If i had the money wouldn`t use any stoves at all it be the colapsible kirfaru wood burner (4lb) & 6 man tippie but that will have to wait untill i have a spare 1,5oo quid.
Hey guys iv learnt alot from you all & noted the lot thank you Geo

http://youtu.be/QPtUgQ-6r7c

 

[Paul_B]

You can use them in the tent I'm just saying its not efficient to do so. More efficient to heat up a smaller volume space like inside down clothing or sleeping bag than a larger one such as a tent.

Also it might not kill you but it can make you feel ill. A headache could be discounted as a dehydration headache by those high altitude climbers or Arctic adventurers but it could easily be due to slightly elevated CO levels. It doesn't take much to have an effect, whether you recognise it as that is another thing.

Then if you are inexperienced with your stove you could damage your tent through flare-up or just not insulating the stove from contacting your tent.

It is your choice and it can be done safely and dangerously too. Surely better to know the dangers and other ways of staying warm in those conditions too. My feeling is whatever you use has to be carried / dragged in a sled. Less weight will be better than more. It is going to be lightest to just get into your bag/clothing to stay warm than carry extra fuel to burn for heat in a larger area that is your tent. IF you have a scientific / mathematical inclination then you could perhaps work out the amount of fuel to heat the tent space taking into account the heat loss through the tent walls. Then factor out a bit of the time for cooking and melting snow for drinks and you then can work out the extra fuel and hence weight needed. Too much effort but would be interesting to know. Plus many assumptions too.

Whatever you choose do it safely and enjoy your trip. Tell us about it too, including your stove choice too as there are some gear freaks on here (believe it or not! )

 

[PDA1]

Read this
http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm
If you still want to use a camping stove inside a tent then more fool you. The minimum ventilation requirements given are for a 2-3 inch hole in the roof, and larger gaps at ground level to allow oxygen in. Zipped up winter tents to not have those and you risk death. Don't ask me to carry out the bodies. If you have sufficient ventilation to safely burn a stove inside a tent, the flaps and roof would be so open that there would be little or no chance of warming the space. Close them up so that it warms and CO levels will very quickly reach dangerous levels. Also bear in mind that the effects are cumulative.
BTW, this doesn't address the possibility that you can easily destroy the tent/shelter if the pressurized stove malfunctions or you move and knock it over, oh and immolate yourself at the same time.
The Kifaru type of stove is the only type safe to use in tents. It has a stove pipe which vents outside the tent, and the instructions state the need for adequate ingress of air (i.e. leave the tent flap open a but) so that you don't over deplete the oxygen level inside the tent.
A final point - to tell a beginner that it would be OK provided they were careful is IMO very irresponsible without providing the information and knowledge of what constitutes "being careful". e.g. what needs to be done to provide adequate ventilation.

 

[retired member need4wilderness]

yip read it & convinced was part of this debate i was wanting to hear ! its helped me make a final decision & thats going with my own plan in the first place was to get the kirfaru stove for winter trips & use the Triangia in summer/mild weather for cooking out side . at the end off the day the seriousness of it & that chance im convinced not to use it inside now as i treasure life very much indeed, not worth it ! final conclusion

 

[PDA1]

Those Kifaru stoves are beautiful bits of kit - but so expensive. I have seen a number of youtube videos and other forum pieces about home built stoves with chimneys. You might google "Tent stove" or "tipi stove" to find interesting articles. Sorry if I came over pompous but I feel strongly about hikers putting themselves in danger by ill advised choice or use of basic equipment.