I'm not a Pheasant Plucker…

[Paul_B]

No nation is perfect but Scandinavian countries are a lot further down the road than we are.

I live with a gender studies academic who has researched the subject including projects that looked into best practise to improve the situation in the UK. EYE has a 7 or 8% male workforce in the UK even after several years of trying to drastically improve the ratio not least because there's a shortage of workers in the sector. In Norway it's got a 20 or 30% male workforce and in some areas it's 50%!!! It's the same in other areas of employment with disproportionately female workforce.

It's never as simple as different choices nether. I believe it's a common response from men working in predominantly female filled occupations that until they got the job they thought men couldn't do the job. There's more chance of prejudices about gender in some occupations taking away the choice. That's happening to men and women.

Gender equality is a journey we're on, different nations are further on or traveling faster.

 

[TeeDee]

So from your perspective , Gender job role equality would be an equal split of Men and Women in each occupation? Is that correct?

 

[Allison McKenzie]

So from your perspective , Gender job role equality would be an equal split of Men and Women in each occupation? Is that correct?

I think for me that would be too much. I would settle for equality of opportunity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_opportunity (save me doing it later)

And when someone gets caught being a little bit sexist, they acknowledge it, accept it is built in and moce on.

Most tv chefs are male for the same reason most radio djs and CEOs are male; and moat nurses and cleaners are not. No need to dress it up, we all know why.

 

[TeeDee]

Most tv chefs are male for the same reason most radio djs and CEOs are male; and moat nurses and cleaners are not. No need to dress it up, we all know why.

Nope. Not entirely sure I do which I why I am asking questions.

As you've mentioned Nurse and Cleaners why is there not an equal representation in Bricklayers, Sewage workers , Electricians - etc?

 

[Allison McKenzie]

I think it is because little girls aren't given dolls and boys get guns. Nicely baked in from an early age.

You should have heard my mum when I said i wanted to study physics 'oh Allison, why can't you keep up the dancing and find a nice husband'.

 

[Broch]

I fear assuming that you are a chef is a bit of casual sexism. If a guy cooks he must be a chef. If a girl cooks, well you get your dinner on time.

Actually, I find suggesting that the only reason we were teasing TeeDee about being a chef is because he's male is a little sexist and insulting to TeeDee - we suggested he could be a chef because the meals he has been offering us were inventive, appetising, different, new … If he had been showing us his morning grilled bacon and fried eggs we would not have even considered his 'chef status'.

I think it is because little girls aren't given dolls and boys get guns. Nicely baked in from an early age.

You should have heard my mum when I said i wanted to study physics 'oh Allison, why can't you keep up the dancing and find a nice husband'.

I have to be careful here; I've got into trouble for speaking my mind on this subject before . When asked why there aren't more female engineers and how I would encourage more my usual answer is "why do you want more female engineers? if girls don't want to do engineering don't force them down a path for political correctness. Stop buying them Barbie dolls at the age of 4, make sure they have the opportunity to be creative from an early age and they'll find their path".

I have been accused of being misogynistic for saying that.

However, back on the subject of chefs - it's not the cooking part that means there are more male chefs than women, it's the aggressive high-stress environment of working in a busy, packed commercial kitchen. For two million years the male has gone out and done the high stress aggressive jobs - hunting and fighting - it's in our genes. The female of the species has (generally, not always) carried out the vital nurturing, caring, what we now call domestic, tasks. You cannot change our DNA - women (generally, there are many exceptions) don't enjoy the combative environment. Despite how good she is at cooking, and her formal qualifications, I couldn't imaging Mary Berry running a high quality, fast moving, high-stress restaurant kitchen - I know there are women that do but, in general, fewer women want to than men.

All said in the interest of open discussion - I firmly believe in giving everyone opportunity so that they decide for themselves what direction(s) they want to take.

 

[TeeDee]

Actually, I find suggesting that the only reason we were teasing TeeDee about being a chef is because he's male is a little sexist and insulting to TeeDee - we suggested he could be a chef because the meals he has been offering us were inventive, appetising, different, new … If he had been showing us his morning grilled bacon and fried eggs we would not have even considered his 'chef status'.

Yes I concur ( If I'm allowed to as the subject matter ) - as mentioned before I could take Nettles and just turn them into a Buschrafty Soup with no visual appeal or finesse - I've still taken something from Nature and made it / processed it to be edible but it would I suggest lack the Kerb appeal of visual cooking.

I have to be careful here; I've got into trouble for speaking my mind on this subject before . When asked why there aren't more female engineers and how I would encourage more my usual answer is "why do you want more female engineers? if girls don't want to do engineering don't force them down a path for political correctness. Stop buying them Barbie dolls at the age of 4, make sure they have the opportunity to be creative from an early age and they'll find their path".

I have been accused of being misogynistic for saying that.

However, back on the subject of chefs - it's not the cooking part that means there are more male chefs than women, it's the aggressive high-stress environment of working in a busy, packed commercial kitchen. For two million years the male has gone out and done the high stress aggressive jobs - hunting and fighting - it's in our genes. The female of the species has (generally, not always) carried out the vital nurturing, caring, what we now call domestic, tasks. You cannot change our DNA - women (generally, there are many exceptions) don't enjoy the combative environment. Despite how good she is at cooking, and her formal qualifications, I couldn't imaging Mary Berry running a high quality, fast moving, high-stress restaurant kitchen - I know there are women that do but, in general, fewer women want to than men.

All said in the interest of open discussion - I firmly believe in giving everyone opportunity so that they decide for themselves what direction(s) they want to take.

I'm in agreement Broc , Testosterone is a very competitive hormone . To be honest I cant imagine a more unlikeable environment than a high end restaurant for a Chef - early starts , late finishes , hot , busy , timing is everything. Er...No thanks , not for me - Life Choice.

Who wants to be Elon Musk working 70-80 hours a week to be the leader in his field?? Probably ONLY Elon Musk.

I've watched a fair bit of Jordan Petersons study on this and as Scandinavia is widely seen to be THE leading country for providing equal opportunities it poses a question of why they are not seeing equal outcomes ie men and women make different life choices regarding work & career options - Truth is I suspect we make differing life choices as Men and Women.

 

[santaman2000]

The discussion has veered onto a couple of paths now. The male/female bit aside, we’ e also discussed in passing the difference between a cook and a chef. I’ll just repeat something I said on a different thread many years ago:
Cook = Somebody who is paid poorly to take the food you choose and cook it the way you like it.
-vs-
Chef = Somebody who is paid well to choose what he/she thinks you “should” like and supervises others to cook it according to the chef’s tastes.

 

[Broch]

We're getting into semantics really - to be pedantic a chef is a 'chef de cuisine' (that's where the word comes from) and basically means the 'cooking boss' - the 'chef' may not actually do any cooking!

However, to me, the difference between a cook and a chef in the domestic world is that a chef can be innovative, develop their own recipes based on knowledge and experience, and can add both taste and visual appeal to the food being prepared. If one just follows family traditional recipes or uses recipe books one is a 'cook' albeit maybe a good one

 

[TLM]

"Scandinavia" is not so homogeneous that one could group it like that - on almost any subject.

 

[Paul_B]

Nowhere is homogenous. It was only said Scandinavia were a good pointer in the direction the UK needs to move in. I work in quality and you often benchmark against the best examples. I see equal opportunities in the UK should be benchmarked against countries better at it than the UK. I mentioned early years education as a classic situation where in the UK there isn't equal opportunities. There's a few blocks to men working in that area but it's been shown that having more men working in that area has very positive outcomes on the development of children. Perhaps a big block is cultural. How many parents would be suspicious of male early years employees? It's a lot higher in the UK. Also Scandinavian nations often have better parental rights, especially better for fathers. It probably all plays into equal opportunities.

I'm far from an expert but it's a big learning curve when I first met my partner who has studied gender issues for probably more than ten years, probably 15 years. However, calling Teedee a chef wasn't sexist IMHO. Certainly never thought about gender when I first made my comments about it. I used the term because Teedee created a meal rather than followed recipes or basic cooking techniques. He (or she because AFAIK Teedee isn't gender clear as a screen name) has used different ingredients to commonly used and it appears that it's a successful combination. Can't we give credit where it's deserved without gender becoming an issue?

 

[Broch]

Can't we give credit where it's deserved without gender becoming an issue?

It's not an issue, it's just a friendly discussion

 

[Paul_B]

It's a pointless discussion when the chef comments were simply about the quality of the meal produced by the op without reference or link to gender. At most it revolves around the idea that quality of food confers the title chef vs cook. I didn't think that was controversial and worthy of discussion.

 

[Broch]

It's a pointless discussion when the chef comments were simply about the quality of the meal produced by the op without reference or link to gender. At most it revolves around the idea that quality of food confers the title chef vs cook. I didn't think that was controversial and worthy of discussion.

Again, it may seem pointless from your point of view, but a few of us participated, including the OP, and enjoyed the banter; well I did anyway.

 

[TeeDee]

FWIW I was born a Guy but mostly identify as a 1952 Pale Blue Morris Minor.

Touch of rust over the Front Right Drivers wheel arch.

 

[Paul_B]

Why Guy and not or Freddy? Is Guy another gender? I can't keep up with it all. At work in January out of curiosity a colleague Googled to find out how many genders there are, 73 apparently. Two weeks later it got to 91!! If Guy, Roger or Freddy gets accepted as new genders then I'll get really confused!!!

 

[Allison McKenzie]

Paul, I was just messing with you. I am very sorry. I don't really think you are a casual sexist.

 

[Paul_B]

Again, it may seem pointless from your point of view, but a few of us participated, including the OP, and enjoyed the banter; well I did anyway.

You might enjoy it but still pointless because it's inserting equality issues into a discussion that didn't have it up to that point. I don't think pointless discussions can't be enjoyed. I also think equal opportunities does need discussing even though it possibly cuts into the no politics angle at some point.

 

[Paul_B]

Paul, I was just messing with you. I am very sorry. I don't really think you are a casual sexist.

I know my prejudices well enough, I do have a few like everyone else has. I freely acknowledge them and make clear my acceptance of the flaw in having them means I'm trying my best not to have them impact on others.

I also didn't take offence so no need to apologize. Perhaps I'm too touchy at times with gender or equality discussions. I've had too many with people who have had extreme views on it.

 

[santaman2000]

FWIW I was born a Guy but mostly identify as a 1952 Pale Blue Morris Minor.

Touch of rust over the Front Right Drivers wheel arch.

I’m a trans-financial. I was born a poor man but I’ve always self identified as a wealthy oil baron.