If I made a copper.....

Eric_Methven

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 20, 2005
3,600
42
73
Durham City, County Durham
If I made a copper pan or kettle, from sheet copper, and I soldered all the joints, would the solder melt on an open fire? I'm assuming it'll be full of water most of the time, and some kind of liquid the other times.

I know copper pans have been in use for hundreds of years. I just don't know the methods used for joining seams so they don't leak.

(I have the chance to get an old battered copper boiler)

Eric
 
You could go for silver solder Eric , its harder to use than the standard lead solder but it wont melt on a fire even if your kettle boils dry and has the added bonus of not having lead in it , Cromwells are doing a special on silver solder at the moment.
 

rancid badger

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I think it would depend on what type of solder you used. There are, in fact, a wide range of solders, some of which melt at very low temperatures, others much higher.
The issue with most solder is the lead content- I'm not sure if you could silver solder it, but I would suggest brazing would be the best bet.
I'm sure the old fashioned "tin ware" was simply soldered together, as long as it didn't boil dry it held together ok. I remember reading somewhere about "greenhorns" melting the handles or spouts off their coffee pots etc.
You can roll or fold the edges together, to form a seam but I think you would need a manual or text book for full details.

For a simple pan you could just hammer out a bucket shape using a suitable log as an anvil. The trick with this sort of thing is to keep annealing or softening it by heating it right up then letting it cool before setting to with the hammer again. I think that's right anyway:confused:

Ecobandit does some cracking stuff in copper,although I don't think he's posted much yet, I think he's still a bit shy!

Anyway, hope this is of some help:rolleyes:
Cheers
R.B.
EDIT: There you go: singeblister got in there first!
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,735
754
-------------
Surely if it contains water it wont get above 100 degrees centigrade though?

Well, as long as you don't boil it dry that is.
 

Mike Ameling

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 18, 2007
872
1
Iowa U.S.A.
www.angelfire.com
Hi, Eric.

There are lead-free solders out there - which usually means it is mostly tin. And silver solder is an option, just a little harder to do.

As long as you don't boil it dry, the solder won't melt out.

There is a good "beginners" article on the Canadian Library's online Journal site.

Copper Trade Kettle

It is a step-by-step article on making your own early/mid 1800's copper trade kettle with lid. The side seam is lapped together, the bottom is tabbed and soldered in place. It has a measured drawing, and a list of materials and tools. And a lot of PICS of each step!

Check it out. There's a lot of good info in the article - including TINNING the inside.

When working your copper sheet, anneal it first, and any time you ... feel ... it getting stiffer to work.

Good luck on your project.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,735
754
-------------
Hi, Eric.

There are lead-free solders out there - which usually means it is mostly tin. And silver solder is an option, just a little harder to do.

As long as you don't boil it dry, the solder won't melt out.

There is a good "beginners" article on the Canadian Library's online Journal site.

Copper Trade Kettle

It is a step-by-step article on making your own early/mid 1800's copper trade kettle with lid. The side seam is lapped together, the bottom is tabbed and soldered in place. It has a measured drawing, and a list of materials and tools. And a lot of PICS of each step!

Check it out. There's a lot of good info in the article - including TINNING the inside.

When working your copper sheet, anneal it first, and any time you ... feel ... it getting stiffer to work.

Good luck on your project.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

Looking on that site, theres some interesting stuff there.
Cheers.
 

Mike Ameling

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 18, 2007
872
1
Iowa U.S.A.
www.angelfire.com
That Canadian Library site has a lot of very interesting stuff on it. Years ago, they started the quarterly Northwest Journal - for their school systems. It is all about the past history of Canada. In the last few years, they moved it to being published ONLINE, and are slowly scanning in the articles from past issues.

And they have a lot of How-To articles, so you can make things for yourself. That article about making your own Copper Trade Kettle is a good example. For all you pyro's, they have two different articles on starting your fire with a traditional flint and steel, and lots of tips on tinder, punk, and proper fire making.

Good info is where you find it. And sometimes that search gets very interesting.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
 

Ben Trout

Nomad
Feb 19, 2006
300
1
46
Wiltshire, GB
Silver solder.

If your design definitely requires joints and cannot be formed go for silver solder. It's really not much more difficult than soft soldering, particularly with bare sheet. It'll cope fine if you ever want to do a fry up or something. Clean up flux residue well when you're done.

If you don't have access to a suitable torch I bought one of these last year;

http://proopsbrothers.com/cgi-bin/s...azing___SilverSoldering_28.html#aM0060#aM0060

Nice compact little oxy-butane set, that works nicely for small brazing work. I've also used it for filling big areas of pyrography on wood. No connection with manufacturer or supplier. I bought the kit from this company at a model engineering show.

I don't know if I could lend you my set. It may be that you will have to buy gas yourself?

Hope it goes well.
 

jdlenton

Full Member
Dec 14, 2004
3,002
7
50
Northampton
only a short reply but most copper pans are made using a technique call raising where the flat sheet is bocked with a mallet into a bowl and then metal sakes an various hammers are used to form the sheet gradually in to the coffee pot of what ever you like

might be some interesting stuff here

spinning is another technique you could try a wood lathe might just be able to do what you want with a small bolt on mod some info here

or you could try and use some of the old in smiths joints not got any info on that

but found this here


How TO SHAPE COOKING VESSELS
It is time for someone to extoll the virtues of the tinned copper cooking vessels, for they are superior in many ways to the enamelware now in general use. A copper pot is practically indestructible. If hurled forcibly down on a concrete floor, it will receive a denting which can be taken out in a few moments with a hammer or mallet. But let an enamelware pot be dropped ever so gently and it is the recipient of an ugly bruise from which radiates a handsome series of line patterns. Between the lines are little chips of glassy material that eventually loosen and fall out, frequently in the food. A set of copper pots is an heirloom which can be passed from one generation to the next, but few enamel pots see more than two or three years' service, so that in the long run copper pots are much more economical. Add to this the rich and handsome appearance of the metal, and the quality of sentiment associated with things formed intimately by human hands.
Copper cooking vessels with flat bottoms and straight sides are either made in two pieces and brazed, or shaped over the stake from a disc. This is held over the stake with the edge of the stake under a circle that is drawn to represent the bottom. The projection to be turned up should not exceed about 3 1/2 ". Taller vessels are best brazed. Drive the metal down with a flat faced wooden mallet (C). Keep turning the disc until the circle is complete. The work will now resemble a ladies' straw hat with a floppy brim. Take up a steel hammer (D) and direct your blows against the junction of the "crown" and the "brim," forcing the brim to give way until the shape is all crown, keeping the work constantly turning. True up the bottom by hammering over a wide, flat-topped stake with wooden mallet, and flat-faced steel hammer or by laying the pot on a hardwood or iron block and working with the same tools from the inside.
The two-piece pots are made this way: Take a piece of copper of a width equal to the height of the pot plus about 3/4", and of a length equal to 3 1/7 times the diameter plus about 3/4". Make a kind of dovetail jointing in the ends and see that they fit neatly. Clean the metal around the joint, and bend your strip to a circular shape, fitting the dovetails into their proper places. Now holding the piece so that it does not spring apart, put it over a stove-pipe stake or a piece of heavy pipe clamped to the bench; hit the dovetails a few light blows with the ball of your hammer (E) to expand them and hold them from moving. Go along the joint tapping gently until it is fairly well closed. Apply a good coating of the brazing mixture on both sides of the joint, put it to the forge and braze.
File and scrape the surplus spelter from the joint. Put it over the stake and tip the end of the cylinder inwards for about 3/4", making a clean flange all round. With a sharp chisel cut another set of dove tails out of this flange. Then put the pot over a disc of copper cut for the bottom and trace the position of the dovetails in the bottom, and fit it, tapping the joint as you did for the side piece (F). Finally apply your paste and braze the joint. When the joints are scraped clean you may planish the pot all over to true it up and enliven the surface. Then you have the question of handles. Single and double handles may be forged out of copper bars bought as scrap from your junk dealer. For the long handles (G) either make a wooden pattern and have them cast at the nearest foundry or buy some ready-made. Use at least two heavy rivets. They are started from the inside of the pot and riveted down over the holes in the handle, on top of a stake.


and if all else fails you could always try hard solder but for a reasonable size pan you will need a very large torch i would have to use both the large gas/compressed air torches i have at achool to do a medium piece and then it would be touch and go

not such a short answer after all

hope this helps

J*
 

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