I want to mimimise my sleeping system
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The bed / duvet concept does work but in the UK a lot of leaf browse is very damp and this is noticeable straight away when you lie on it. Dead bracken / grass works better as long as it has been dry. IMO wool blankets have been romanticised by some clever marketing, nice for sitting around the fire to keep the chill off but no where near as good as a proper sleeping system.
Years ago, I experimented with minimum sleep material. I was keen on the Australian style sleep rolls and similar. On a sub-zero weekend, frost night and day, I set up a simple lean-to tarp and experimented with a variety of ground insulation, clothing, and covers.
The first thing to say is that a calm freezing night is not the worst weather we have to deal with in the UK. Damp, or wet, breezy nights at just above freezing are probably worse. The other thing that is immediately obvious is that what feels comfortable at 11 at night will almost certainly not be at 3 or 4 in the morning. Even when your body is moving a little bit it generates heat; when you've been laying still for 4 or 5 hours all that heat has gone.
Ground insulation was difficult. Anything that allowed air circulation (such as raised bed platforms) just cooled too much - so trapped air is necessary. Most natural material compresses a great deal over a short time so lots of it is necessary. In my short experiments I failed to find a natural material that was practical and worked - I wouldn't have died, but I wasn't comfortable.
As an over-blanket, wool works to start with but at the coldest wasn't enough on its own. It allows the warm air to escape too quickly because of the open weave. I found at least a double layer with a tighter weave layer over the top (such as canvas or waxed cotton) worked very well but a wool blanket on its own didn't hold the heat in. Remember that the trapped warm air in the wool needs to be close to your body so the wool shouldn't be the outer layer.
Oh, and the other thing, all this was tried without an open fire; most romantic depictions of such sleeping have a fire burning
The first thing to say is that a calm freezing night is not the worst weather we have to deal with in the UK. Damp, or wet, breezy nights at just above freezing are probably worse. The other thing that is immediately obvious is that what feels comfortable at 11 at night will almost certainly not be at 3 or 4 in the morning. Even when your body is moving a little bit it generates heat; when you've been laying still for 4 or 5 hours all that heat has gone.
Ground insulation was difficult. Anything that allowed air circulation (such as raised bed platforms) just cooled too much - so trapped air is necessary. Most natural material compresses a great deal over a short time so lots of it is necessary. In my short experiments I failed to find a natural material that was practical and worked - I wouldn't have died, but I wasn't comfortable.
As an over-blanket, wool works to start with but at the coldest wasn't enough on its own. It allows the warm air to escape too quickly because of the open weave. I found at least a double layer with a tighter weave layer over the top (such as canvas or waxed cotton) worked very well but a wool blanket on its own didn't hold the heat in. Remember that the trapped warm air in the wool needs to be close to your body so the wool shouldn't be the outer layer.
Oh, and the other thing, all this was tried without an open fire; most romantic depictions of such sleeping have a fire burning
As someone who can remember the days before central heating and duvets, in the winter, you will be in trouble !
As a child, I do remember 3 wool blankets and a feather eiderdown , in my unheated bedroom in winter, parents had the same.
It's possible in the summer, but not this time of year. The leaves are damp, which will be taking body heat however thick a bed you make. Wind chill is another factor.
Unless you are a hobbit, I'd say not a good idea.
To get some idea, try sleeping on the foor in an unheated bedroom, with the windows wide open. See how warm you are, then add in a floor of damp leaves and wind chill.
Even if you have a fire, you will have to keep getting every couple of hours up to tend it to keep warm, so very little sleep.
Possible in summer I'm sure, but not this time of year.
As a child, I do remember 3 wool blankets and a feather eiderdown , in my unheated bedroom in winter, parents had the same.
It's possible in the summer, but not this time of year. The leaves are damp, which will be taking body heat however thick a bed you make. Wind chill is another factor.
Unless you are a hobbit, I'd say not a good idea.
To get some idea, try sleeping on the foor in an unheated bedroom, with the windows wide open. See how warm you are, then add in a floor of damp leaves and wind chill.
Even if you have a fire, you will have to keep getting every couple of hours up to tend it to keep warm, so very little sleep.
Possible in summer I'm sure, but not this time of year.
Raised bed, like the base of a super shelter, but fill the space with dry leaves, bracken or grass to stop air circulation.
The idea of minimising sleep system by using natural materials for bedding strikes me as one of those awkward trade-off arrangements. A warm sleeping bag, compact inflatable mat and bivi bag might not be cheap, or super light, but will do a pretty good job of giving you a full night's sleep. A survival scarf with dead dry vegetation will be cheaper and lighter to carry, but you have to pick a camp spot with suitable bedding material near at hand. Cost and weight traded for convenience, time and freedom. If you have a regular spot then you can build a super shelter type structure and just carry the sheet material on each visit. If you are travelling or want to use different spots, my experience has been that more often than not, otherwise good spots, do not have good bedding materials around. So easy for it all to be wet, or at some seasons, the old leaves are worm food and the current ones are still on the trees.
A well travelled friend who spent time in the bush with locals using nothing but light blankets remarked that those guys did not expect to be comfortable or sleep soundly, that was just accepted as reality away from the village.
The idea of minimising sleep system by using natural materials for bedding strikes me as one of those awkward trade-off arrangements. A warm sleeping bag, compact inflatable mat and bivi bag might not be cheap, or super light, but will do a pretty good job of giving you a full night's sleep. A survival scarf with dead dry vegetation will be cheaper and lighter to carry, but you have to pick a camp spot with suitable bedding material near at hand. Cost and weight traded for convenience, time and freedom. If you have a regular spot then you can build a super shelter type structure and just carry the sheet material on each visit. If you are travelling or want to use different spots, my experience has been that more often than not, otherwise good spots, do not have good bedding materials around. So easy for it all to be wet, or at some seasons, the old leaves are worm food and the current ones are still on the trees.
A well travelled friend who spent time in the bush with locals using nothing but light blankets remarked that those guys did not expect to be comfortable or sleep soundly, that was just accepted as reality away from the village.
This would be both very heavy and quite bulky.
I've seen some American reenactment videos on how they used a wool blanket for outerlayer and sleeping, and for sleping they'd basically lie on the diagonal and tuck in the blanket underneath so that they had 3 layers on top and underneath, with feet covered and one corner as a hood. Still looked cold without a fire....
I think il stick with my bivvy bag thenTry it…..probably just the once!
Always on the lookout for a roll out mattress that can be used on a semi-permanent camp. The Polish Army Field mattress or the British Army cot mattress don't really cut it. Suggestions
Don’t use down bags now, always got damp and therefore cold and I never compromise on a good nights sleep so it’s the one item I don’t mind being bulky or heavy
If you find soft enough ground (whatever that is for you), a ordinary foam roll mat makes a massive difference in terms if insulating you against the ground. Norhing stopping you putting it on top of a pile of vegetable matter, either.
You can do it, but, it can take a lot of effort, and hopefully the right situation with decent resources.
Leaf litter is usually damp, but, if you sew a big sack from fabric that weighs very little, like ripstop nylon, then that'll pack small and stuff in a pocket, but you can fill it with leaves, straw, whatever and it'll keep it all together to make a paliasse for sleeping upon.....keeps the bugs off you too
Warm, comfortable ?? I think that's a personal opinion. Stuff really, really, really well though if you're trying it.Ripstop nylon will dry off quickly next morning though.
Folks cut heather and piled it up, bundled together and threw a blanket(s) over the top of everyone. Highland armies didn't carry tents until they became regiments. Sleeping outdoors was normal. Transhumance was a commonplace annual movement of people and animals, the sheilings we find up on the hills were mostly used for dairy produce, storage of stuff. The younger folks bedded down outdoors.
A heather bed is very comfortable, it's springy and keeps the body off the ground.
It's quite a modern thing this sleeping alone. Bundling was commonplace. It kept everyone warm.
If you are sleeping outdoors under your cloak as you suggest though, you might be better becoming accustomed to broken sleep.
Apparently our normal sleep cycle is an hour and a half, and we multiply those up through the night. So, if you sleep for three cycles, get up and move around, have a look at the world kind of thing
and then curl up and go back to sleep again for another couple of cycles, you'll be fine. You get used to it, and you'll not get frostbite I've slept on fine shingle, which is surprisingly comfortable, with just a bit of oilskin beneath me and a plaid over the top. You need to scoop out a bit for hips and shoulders though, tuck your feet up close. I was young then though, I wouldn't do it out of dire need now.
Leylandii branches (stick the resinous end down into the ground) makes a comfy base too. Smells good.
You'll find links to the hot stones from the fire buried under soil beneath you.
In our climate you can just end up stewing and steaming as if in a sauna
Leaves you and your clothes sodden wet and you shivering later.Must be brilliant in a cold desert night though
To be honest, I think you might be better waiting a bit and trying all this in warmer, drier weather. Right now it's just above freezing, and sodden wet in my bit of the world.....and the days are very short too. That means the nights are verrry long. Too long to want to hang around when you can't sleep for fourteen or fifteen hours.
M
Iv slept on Heather many times it’s very comfyYou can do it, but, it can take a lot of effort, and hopefully the right situation with decent resources.
Leaf litter is usually damp, but, if you sew a big sack from fabric that weighs very little, like ripstop nylon, then that'll pack small and stuff in a pocket, but you can fill it with leaves, straw, whatever and it'll keep it all together to make a paliasse for sleeping upon.....keeps the bugs off you too
Ripstop nylon will dry off quickly next morning though.
Folks cut heather and piled it up, bundled together and threw a blanket(s) over the top of everyone. Highland armies didn't carry tents until they became regiments. Sleeping outdoors was normal. Transhumance was a commonplace annual movement of people and animals, the sheilings we find up on the hills were mostly used for dairy produce, storage of stuff. The younger folks bedded down outdoors.
A heather bed is very comfortable, it's springy and keeps the body off the ground.
It's quite a modern thing this sleeping alone. Bundling was commonplace. It kept everyone warm.
If you are sleeping outdoors under your cloak as you suggest though, you might be better becoming accustomed to broken sleep.
Apparently our normal sleep cycle is an hour and a half, and we multiply those up through the night. So, if you sleep for three cycles, get up and move around, have a look at the world kind of thing
I've slept on fine shingle, which is surprisingly comfortable, with just a bit of oilskin beneath me and a plaid over the top. You need to scoop out a bit for hips and shoulders though, tuck your feet up close. I was young then though, I wouldn't do it out of dire need now.
Leylandii branches (stick the resinous end down into the ground) makes a comfy base too. Smells good.
You'll find links to the hot stones from the fire buried under soil beneath you.
In our climate you can just end up stewing and steaming as if in a sauna
Must be brilliant in a cold desert night though
To be honest, I think you might be better waiting a bit and trying all this in warmer, dryer weather. Right now it's just above freezing, and sodden wet in my bit of the world.....and the days are very short too. That means the nights are verrry long. Too long to want to hang around when you can't sleep for fourteen or fifteen hours.
M
It sounded like you wanted to just use natural material though and I just meant that adding a thin roll mat would possibly make that a lot more comfortable (and safe).
Yeh I was thinking using a debris bag full natural material but a thin roll mat on top is a good idea thanks
Not here today, my son. 18" powder overnight so little chance of building a debris shelter. It soaks up all sound, the village doesn't make a sound. The container trains from the Rupert superport on the coast are only 2 blocks from me. If I don't see them move, no sound.
I've slept on a wheat straw "tick" as more of a novelty than anything else on my grandfather's farm. The tick was sugar and flour bags sewn together. It needs to be packed really quite hard to have the least little compressive resistance when you lie on your side.
In the meantime, I'll set my eBlanket to 3 for a start and visit tomorrow.
I've slept on a wheat straw "tick" as more of a novelty than anything else on my grandfather's farm. The tick was sugar and flour bags sewn together. It needs to be packed really quite hard to have the least little compressive resistance when you lie on your side.
In the meantime, I'll set my eBlanket to 3 for a start and visit tomorrow.
electric blanket with widely variable heating.
You would have woken up to a drippy surprise with +1C and our big dump of snow is sinking fast. Just handfuls in my trees.
You would have woken up to a drippy surprise with +1C and our big dump of snow is sinking fast. Just handfuls in my trees.
Around the freezing point you can sleep without a fire comfortably with the clothing you described IN a heap of leaves if they are dry.
Otherwise you need a camp fire that you have to feed after the first 3 hours and afterwards every 90 minutes what's no problem, because you will awake because it's cold. You surely will need more than 7 1/2 hours, probably 9 hours if we don't talk about a single night.
It can be done of course as they did it hundreds of years before. But there is a reason why the armies nowadays issue sleeping bags with polyester filling, closed cell foam mats and Goretex bivvy bags and not the woollen great coats anymore.
I recommend to try that out at approximately 10 °C to get a first impression. If you can sleep in a heap of dry leaves you can do that without a problem directly at 0°C.
But dry leaves surely aren't so easy to find in autumn, winter and spring.
Otherwise I recommend to keep your modern sleep system, because you will surely return to it anyway.
Otherwise you need a camp fire that you have to feed after the first 3 hours and afterwards every 90 minutes what's no problem, because you will awake because it's cold. You surely will need more than 7 1/2 hours, probably 9 hours if we don't talk about a single night.
It can be done of course as they did it hundreds of years before. But there is a reason why the armies nowadays issue sleeping bags with polyester filling, closed cell foam mats and Goretex bivvy bags and not the woollen great coats anymore.
I recommend to try that out at approximately 10 °C to get a first impression. If you can sleep in a heap of dry leaves you can do that without a problem directly at 0°C.
But dry leaves surely aren't so easy to find in autumn, winter and spring.
Otherwise I recommend to keep your modern sleep system, because you will surely return to it anyway.
