Hypothetical.

[KenThis]

Please can I ask an hypothetical question for those who have experience with making and buying knives.

If an order for a knife has been agreed and subsequently has been paid in full.
But the knife is more than 12 months overdue and the knife maker has missed more than half a dozen self declared deadlines in that time.
Is it unreasonable to have lost trust in both the knife maker and the finished knife?
Is it unreasonable to request that the order be cancelled and a full refund?

If you reply it would be helpful to know if you are a knife buyer, knife maker or both.

Many Thanks in Advance.

 

[woodstock]

I think you would be well within your rights to demand a full refund, the only problem being there is no written contract between you and the maker if all else fails you could try a small claims court but even that does not mean you will get your money back, or you could name and shame the maker that would be more productive.

 

[snappingturtle]

I make the odd one as an agreed commission so all contract is verbal, what then happens is half payment and an agreed time frame which can run over but not by much, once work is done full payment is made and they get a month to work the hell out of it and be happy they got what was asked for or not. I guess your agreement is similar I guess the time frame is too long so you can but ask for a refund I don't know how that works for you in law as I gather no written terms are present.

 

[Macaroon]

Please can I ask an hypothetical question for those who have experience with making and buying knives.

If an order for a knife has been agreed and subsequently has been paid in full.
But the knife is more than 12 months overdue and the knife maker has missed more than half a dozen self declared deadlines in that time.
Is it unreasonable to have lost trust in both the knife maker and the finished knife?
Is it unreasonable to request that the order be cancelled and a full refund?

If you reply it would be helpful to know if you are a knife buyer, knife maker or both.

Many Thanks in Advance.

The length of time taken is, in and of itself, irrelevant; it's the missed deadlines that make this sort of situation a terrible frustration for the buyer and especially when that many deadlines are self imposed by the maker and then broken. That's a trust issue and I for one would have a lot less patience than you have displayed in the matter. I don't see anything in the least unreasonable in the things you mention, not in the least.

I think most here will have a fair idea of who and what is involved here, and in my view your forebearance in all this has been way beyond what most would have shown. I think you're well within your rights to seek redress in whatever way you can; quite how you'd go about it is another matter though.

I'm a buyer of knives and much other bespoke gear, and an erstwhile seller of hand made things.

 

[Broch]

There is no issue with there being no written contract; that's not necessary for UK law to apply. The fact the maker has missed his own offered deadlines show that the time frame can no longer be considered 'reasonable'.
To cover yourself, send a recorded delivery letter that states you now consider the timescale too long and unless you receive the ordered knife within x days (say 30) you require a full refund. You could point out that if you do not receive your knife or the money within that time you will seek compensation via the small claims court which will incur additional costs on his behalf. If you hear nothing within that timeframe use the small claims service - as long as he is still traceable to a UK address you should get your money back.
I have both successfully and unsuccessfully (when the offender left the country) used the small claims service.
If you used PayPal or a credit card go via them.

 

[Janne]

Knife buyer here.
No
No

I expect one or two months at most, unless informed of longer.
12 months and several deadlines - if you are that awful on your time management skills, are you equally awful in your knife making skills?
Or just taking the pi$$ out of a customer?

 

[zackerty]

Never pay up front...ever...

Recover the paid money ASAP...

 

[Janne]

Well, makers of all sorts need a deposit to cover the materials.

 

[Stew]

Well, makers of all sorts need a deposit to cover the materials.

A deposit is one thing but full payment is another.

 

[zackerty]

I have never taken a deposit...

I have borrowed money from someone else unrelated to my knives...
it was business deal with paperwork and clauses, but it never intruded on my customers.

I could have dropped dead, but the customer who had sent me a deposit would not believe it, even if shown pictures of my decomposing body in my workshop ...

 

[Janne]

A deposit is one thing but full payment is another.

absolutely. I wanted to say a deposit was OK and expected but not full payment....
But even then, if full payment is done just before the product is sent to you, you can get cheated.

 

[Fadcode]

Obviously the maker has had some health problems, but should have kept you informed, it is possible he still has health problems write to him and ask him for an explanation,
Personally I would not pay any maker a deposit or payment in full, and all this malarky about needing to buy stock to make it, a knife will probably cost no more than £30 in materials the value is in the time put in to make it, I make and buy knives and have never had any trouble , maybe I have been lucky, I have seen makers demand 50% up front then say its non returnable if you cancel for any reason, bit cheeky I think, most good makers will have no trouble at all selling their knives if someone pulls out, unless the knife is an oddity and one someone else will not want.
I know you have waited a long time Ken, but write to him and ask him, he is a nice bloke and I am sure he will help you.

 

[Nice65]

I know who you're on about, and it's been an ongoing thing for a while now. I'd go all out for a refund, I don't see the situation improving for you or others waiting for knives.

 

[Janne]

I ask myself for a part payment when I do certain work, specifically when I am using a technician for crowns/bridges/dentures.

I see no fault in asking for a deposit. Specially for a knife where the buyer specified exactly what he wants.

 

[Hammock_man]

After all this time, would you ever be happy with the knife. It could be a most wonderous product be would always carry that stain.. bad taste.. whatever. Goods in hand in 20 working days or small claims court, no if or buts or anything. I, myself, would still name the maker as a service to members wallets.

 

[Fadcode]

I ask myself for a part payment when I do certain work, specifically when I am using a technician for crowns/bridges/dentures.

I see no fault in asking for a deposit. Specially for a knife where the buyer specified exactly what he wants.

If its for one person and wont do anyone else then its reasonable to ask for a deposit, as you say you have to pay other people to complete the project, but it would be different if you were making something generic, as it simply go into stock and be sold to the next customer.
Apparently there are quite a few people in the same situation as our Ken, and that is not fair, he is still taking orders even though he has not fulfilled many of his earlier orders, and that is apart from the lack of communication, I have one of his knives and its a quality knife, but do you need all this hassle, I dont think so.

 

[Nice65]

After all this time, would you ever be happy with the knife. It could be a most wonderous product be would always carry that stain.. bad taste.. whatever. Goods in hand in 20 working days or small claims court, no if or buts or anything. I, myself, would still name the maker as a service to members wallets.

Quick view of KenThis posts will tell you who it is, Hillbill. It's not the first time, and I'm fairly sure there's a thread here already about lack of knife, lack of communications, money being taken, and people being hard done by and having to chase him up to the point of politely asking around. KenThis's post is one of many, and Mark should man up and address everyone (not just here either), and offer an explanation and refunds. If he's still taking commissions and producing knives, then he's nicked your money.

It's very unfortunate all round, I've seen it happen on BB several times and it's always sad to see a skilled craftsman unable to handle business.

Anyone, ill, financially troubled, taken on more than they can deal with, should, at the very least, post a message to let all prospective customers know there's a problem. And offer a refund if the order cannot be met. It's really stupid not to take such a simple step to prevent a good reputation turn into a bad taste.

 

[zackerty]

Well said, Rich...

 

[Janne]

If the knife maker freqvents this forum he should chime in, I think.

 

[Fadcode]

He was on EM a few hours ago, and he is also a member on here, so he is obviously not sick , he should man up and either refund or get knives out to these people, a costly lesson as been learnt , never pay up front, especially never pay the full price up front..........Its a shame things like this happen, especially to colleagues on the forum.......................