Seemed they called him out on that at the time...
http://www.thedailygreen.com/living...nsportation/wilderness-survival-hoaxes-460305
How long could you survive?
- Thread starter Martyn
- Start date
Seemed they called him out on that at the time...
http://www.thedailygreen.com/living...nsportation/wilderness-survival-hoaxes-460305
forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Time for me to weight in here, I think...
The Swedish survival guild have done 10 day survival treks, in summer in Medelpad in Sweden. Quite basic kit list; clothes and boots, spare socks, warm hat and sweather, rainwear of choice. No fire-toys, no knife, no pots. it was a group event, but the data are fairly good. Even if one noes not eat anything one can live quite ok for a fortnight, making shelters and bowdrill fires (how good are your bootlaces or hand made cordage?), while travelling a bit (about 150 km IIRC). If we had ben able to just make camp and stay there, building fish traps and set lines (would need a permit for those), snares and deadfalls (illegal), collecting plants, we could have lived fairly well. Walking almost every day (and no breaking the law) life was a bit rougher, but not impossible by any means (and we are not all fit 20-something triathletes, the top age on this summers advanced trek was 56...).
Much longer than that one would ideally need better food, i.e. hunting or fishing, but survival from a pure starvation perspective is probably after a month or even longer even with no food. There are good data from people staging hunger-strikes in prisons -- thank the IRA for your medical data -- one apparently does not starve to death as much die from vitamin and mineral deficiency.
In winter (northern Sweden definition of winter) the situation is about the same, a week of travel on skis with pack and sleeping in improvised shelters (with sleeping bags, etc: "just clothes" is not really a safe option in subarctic winter) is quite doable for most people that are even reasonably fit and moderately skilled. Food does not matter much under such short durations, but water is of course essential.
The problem is that you can die within hours from hypothermia, or days from dehydration (or in minutes from ex-sanguation). These are all things where a single person is terribly vulnerable, for all the well known reasons. If I went out now I would expect that I would struggle with the food (starting from scratch this time of year around here is tricky, I would expect to be *quite* lean by spring), but baring accident or stupidity I would not expect to die wery quickly. Hmm, I listed stupidity, I might be dead within a day after all... :-/
So my advice is; leave all the sharps at home if out for more than a couple of days alone, since low blood glucose/lack of sleep will mean that you are not at your best either physically or mentally. And preferably do not do it alone, or have a safety option (Spot, PLB, friend with a full backpack tagging along, etc).
I can probably get some actual numbers data from a medical researcher who has done some fairly good studies on what happens to us on these trips, if anyone wants urinary ketone and blood glucose data, coupled to sleep deprivation and mental test results.
The Swedish survival guild have done 10 day survival treks, in summer in Medelpad in Sweden. Quite basic kit list; clothes and boots, spare socks, warm hat and sweather, rainwear of choice. No fire-toys, no knife, no pots. it was a group event, but the data are fairly good. Even if one noes not eat anything one can live quite ok for a fortnight, making shelters and bowdrill fires (how good are your bootlaces or hand made cordage?), while travelling a bit (about 150 km IIRC). If we had ben able to just make camp and stay there, building fish traps and set lines (would need a permit for those), snares and deadfalls (illegal), collecting plants, we could have lived fairly well. Walking almost every day (and no breaking the law) life was a bit rougher, but not impossible by any means (and we are not all fit 20-something triathletes, the top age on this summers advanced trek was 56...).
Much longer than that one would ideally need better food, i.e. hunting or fishing, but survival from a pure starvation perspective is probably after a month or even longer even with no food. There are good data from people staging hunger-strikes in prisons -- thank the IRA for your medical data -- one apparently does not starve to death as much die from vitamin and mineral deficiency.
In winter (northern Sweden definition of winter) the situation is about the same, a week of travel on skis with pack and sleeping in improvised shelters (with sleeping bags, etc: "just clothes" is not really a safe option in subarctic winter) is quite doable for most people that are even reasonably fit and moderately skilled. Food does not matter much under such short durations, but water is of course essential.
The problem is that you can die within hours from hypothermia, or days from dehydration (or in minutes from ex-sanguation). These are all things where a single person is terribly vulnerable, for all the well known reasons. If I went out now I would expect that I would struggle with the food (starting from scratch this time of year around here is tricky, I would expect to be *quite* lean by spring), but baring accident or stupidity I would not expect to die wery quickly. Hmm, I listed stupidity, I might be dead within a day after all... :-/
So my advice is; leave all the sharps at home if out for more than a couple of days alone, since low blood glucose/lack of sleep will mean that you are not at your best either physically or mentally. And preferably do not do it alone, or have a safety option (Spot, PLB, friend with a full backpack tagging along, etc).
I can probably get some actual numbers data from a medical researcher who has done some fairly good studies on what happens to us on these trips, if anyone wants urinary ketone and blood glucose data, coupled to sleep deprivation and mental test results.
How much difference do you think being part of a group makes?
You are right about starvation. Anorexics can live years on amazingly little food. I've just been reading about a Japanese soldier who was "rescued" from the jungle 28 years after the war ended.
You are right about starvation. Anorexics can live years on amazingly little food. I've just been reading about a Japanese soldier who was "rescued" from the jungle 28 years after the war ended.
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"I can probably get some actual numbers data from a medical researcher who has done some fairly good studies on what happens to us on these trips, if anyone wants urinary ketone and blood glucose data, coupled to sleep deprivation and mental test results"
Yes please if possible.
Yes please if possible.
It can't have been exactly the same course (Woodlore Journeyman) as nobody caught any fish or rabbits on the one I was on.
I've tried to get out and do something similar each year since and it doesn't get any easier.
It depends which group, having the wrong folks around can be a real handicap, having the right people around you can make all the difference.
Going without food is a complex matter, it's not just the calorie intake that's important it's also things like the blood sugar levels that can cause havoc with how we feel.
As i say you could live a few weeks without food, BUT you will be considerably less dexterous in that time, even basic tasks will take many many times longer.
Again as i said even things like walking get to be such a chore especially as because of your loss of dexterity you fall over a LOT more.
You find that you tend to just sit and stare into space, it might seem only like a few seconds to you at the time, but it can be into double figures in mins that float by.
Add into that state some considerable discomfort like mossies, raining non stop for days, falling over all the time, your cover needing repair, not catching food, etc etc and there are very few people that wouldn't drop into depression.
Some will snap out of it, others will slip deeper into it, but it's how you handles these set backs that will determine if you can stand it or not.
Udamiano,
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/member.php?u=2501I would strongly advise you to get some proper medical advise before your trip.
If you catch and eat then you might be fine, but if you have to go without much food for a few days THEN fill your face with your lovely steak sandwich it's going to play mary hell with your blood sugar levels.
At the very least i would avoid driving or working heavy machinery for a few days after, if there is any history of diabetes in your family though you may well be facing a very real and very dangerous risk.
It could be fine as well, to be honest i don't really know enough to say for certain either way.
But without a doubt if you eat heavily after a period of fasting your blood sugar levels are going to go crazy and i would bet money you will swing from barely able to keep your eyes open to feeling drunk in mins.
As i say you could live a few weeks without food, BUT you will be considerably less dexterous in that time, even basic tasks will take many many times longer.
Again as i said even things like walking get to be such a chore especially as because of your loss of dexterity you fall over a LOT more.
You find that you tend to just sit and stare into space, it might seem only like a few seconds to you at the time, but it can be into double figures in mins that float by.
Add into that state some considerable discomfort like mossies, raining non stop for days, falling over all the time, your cover needing repair, not catching food, etc etc and there are very few people that wouldn't drop into depression.
Some will snap out of it, others will slip deeper into it, but it's how you handles these set backs that will determine if you can stand it or not.
Udamiano,
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/member.php?u=2501I would strongly advise you to get some proper medical advise before your trip.
If you catch and eat then you might be fine, but if you have to go without much food for a few days THEN fill your face with your lovely steak sandwich it's going to play mary hell with your blood sugar levels.
At the very least i would avoid driving or working heavy machinery for a few days after, if there is any history of diabetes in your family though you may well be facing a very real and very dangerous risk.
It could be fine as well, to be honest i don't really know enough to say for certain either way.
But without a doubt if you eat heavily after a period of fasting your blood sugar levels are going to go crazy and i would bet money you will swing from barely able to keep your eyes open to feeling drunk in mins.
Hi mate,
See post 114
thanks for your concern, much appreciated :thank you:
While I hope I'll get a steak sandwich waiting for me. The truth would be more likely bathing instructions, whatever is in the fridge meal, and more bathing instructions, and a cup of tea
Day
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Sorry but in a healthy person that does not have diabetes or other endocrine issue, you will maintain blood sugars within normal range of approx 3.5mmol to 6mmol regardless of dietary intake until the chronic and serious effects of starvation kick in
In the absence of a Doctor in the house, MAYBE, as you say...... the health advice should be left to the individual in discussion with their GP
Ahhhh i missed that, still better safe than sorry though.
You going to start a thread on this?
Be great to have your findings logged from the planning stage onwards.
You going to start a thread on this?
Be great to have your findings logged from the planning stage onwards.
Yes a separate thread would probably be the best option, as it's likely to be a bit pic heavy.
Day
Sounds like you have a medical background so i'll bow to your experience on this.
I still stand by the mental effects though as although i am not diabetic i have experienced this and know that others have as well.
And that's really the direction my posts are aimed, to me the lack of food is a mental challenge more than a physical and metabolism challenge.
Many religions fast on a yearly basis, some for only a few hours others for days, but it does show that without a doubt it's possible as millions a year do it.
There difference here though is that in these circumstances we need to stay dexterous both mentally and physically.
You are correct that blood sugar lessens without food and increases with, but it remains within normal range.
Lethargy will increase, though the biggest factor is dehydration in the short term, next the effects of ketosis including again all those things to be expected with dehydration, headaches, lethargy, some confusion, nausea etc etc.
By end of first week, assuming adequate hydration and salts/vits are gained, these symptoms may well stabilise as your body tries to adjust and compensate.
The task of going without for a month isn't to be taken lightly, as i mentioned before and again, vits and salts can't really be done without and not have risk to longer term health. But for a midlife, healthy adult, you will likely bounce back from a one off exercise.. The body and especially the liver (where the metabolism of the bodies store of fat takes place) are amazing things with great recovery powers
To qualify what I say, I am not a doctor....... I work for a living
Lethargy will increase, though the biggest factor is dehydration in the short term, next the effects of ketosis including again all those things to be expected with dehydration, headaches, lethargy, some confusion, nausea etc etc.
By end of first week, assuming adequate hydration and salts/vits are gained, these symptoms may well stabilise as your body tries to adjust and compensate.
The task of going without for a month isn't to be taken lightly, as i mentioned before and again, vits and salts can't really be done without and not have risk to longer term health. But for a midlife, healthy adult, you will likely bounce back from a one off exercise.. The body and especially the liver (where the metabolism of the bodies store of fat takes place) are amazing things with great recovery powers
To qualify what I say, I am not a doctor....... I work for a living
Many Greek Orthodox followers fast over Easter.
Usually it's not eating meat, milk, oil etc over the 40 days, but on the day before Easter eat nothing except dried bread, some not even eating that.
Some Hindus also fast as do some Muslim and Jewish groups.
It really depends on the local believes and level of believing.
To qualify what I say, I am not a doctor....... I work for a living
What do you do?
Twice as much as a medic for half as much money!
Won't say in public as it infers that what I say is professional advice. I do have post grad knowledge in anatomy, physiology and health.
But to reiterate, while I'll happily state what's what from a physiology perspective, share my limited experience of what happened to me in a similar situation and state basic nutritional advice, the only real advice there can be is to speak to your gp first for opinion, and it might be that you have to seek out a medic who has a personal interest in messing around outdoors.... Without that interest they might persevere in dissuading you from the venture
forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
1. Safety. If you cut your thumb off or twist an ankle you csn get help.
2. Shared jobs (e.g. firewood)
3. Mental wellbeing, if you are one of the majority that likes having other people around
