Hot or cold smoking; what preserves food best?

[Lush]

Hi there,

Which of the two methods produces the best results for keeping fish; hot or cold smoking? I am asking this because I read different things about it. Some say hot smoking, which in a way makes sense. But then again some say cold, which also makes sense as it takes a lot longer and gets more exposure to the smoke and probably dries the food a lot better. Of course much depends on the temperature and humidity in which you plan to store the smoked product, but I like to keep that out of the discussion because it complicates it.

Whats your opinion about this?
thanks!

 

[Buckshot]

Hot smoking is cooking with a smokey flavour whereas cold smoking is a way of preserving the food AFAIK
Cold smoking is better if you're looking to preserve food, hot if you intend to eat stright away

 

[Lush]

Thanks Buckshot, just to be sure. I understood that sweet water fish like trout can contain parasites that survive brining and need to be frozen for 2 weeks to be sure those are killed. Cold smoking itself might not be hot enough to kill those parasites. What do you guy's think of that? That would mean you can only smoke fish and keep it when it's freezing, but not in autumn, when temperatures are low enough to keep smoked fish, but it doesn't freeze yet.

 

[santaman2000]

Smoking (and the associated briming) preserves fish (or any other meat) from decay. It does nothing in itself to kill parasites; other than has been said that hot smoking is actually cooking which may or may not kill them.

 

[Lush]

...other than has been said that hot smoking is actually cooking which may or may not kill them....

Thanks santaman. What do you mean by that? I don't understand the way you put it, please explain

As far as I know hot smoking always kills parasites (if you raise the temp the way it should...).

But if you keep the temp long enough around 72 degrees celsius (160 fahrenheit) during cold smoking, the food should be a kind of pasteurized I guess. But yeah, no parasites killed of course; they can survive higher temps.

I am not sure actually if I should risk eating cold smoked sweet water fish with regard to parasites (which is a different question).

 

[Gray]

Hot smoking is cooking with a smokey flavour whereas cold smoking is a way of preserving the food AFAIK
Cold smoking is better if you're looking to preserve food, hot if you intend to eat stright away

this is what i've been led to believe as well. You then cook before eating killing off nasties

 

[Buckshot]

You then cook before eating killing off nasties

That's interesting I'd not cook too
Smoked Salmon for instance isn't supposed to be cooked too is it - or is it?

 

[Lush]

That's interesting I'd not cook too
Smoked Salmon for instance isn't supposed to be cooked too is it - or is it?

It depends on what you call "cooking". I think Gray meant just "hot smoking" when he said "cooking", because of the temp raise towards the end?? I found that very different temps are mentioned by different sources on the internet. That is probably because no fish or meat has the same thickness. The internal temp during hot smoking must be at least 72 degrees Celsius for the last few hours (160 Fahrenheit) which means the outside temperature must be higher to be able to reach that. Unless you finish it off in an oven to ensure an even and stable temp.

I guess to be sure to get rid of parasites, fresh water fish should be cooked at the end. Salmon do carry Henneguya salminicola which can cause sickness in humans. I just checked that... That's interesting to me too. Yet I have seen many ppl. in alaska smoke their fresh salmon and pike without freezing them first. But those where frozen after because of the weather! I must add that I don't know the temperature at which those were smoked.

 

[santaman2000]

Thanks santaman. What do you mean by that? I don't understand the way you put it, please explain

As far as I know hot smoking always kills parasites (if you raise the temp the way it should...).

But if you keep the temp long enough around 72 degrees celsius (160 fahrenheit) during cold smoking, the food should be a kind of pasteurized I guess.....

If you get the temp that high, it's not cold smoking. That's hot enough to start cooking. I think from your later posts You've got the idea I was trying to get across; Cooking (whether by hot smoking or any other method) kills parasites IF! If the cooking temperature gets high enough for whatever individual parasite. Whereas cold smoking and briming only preserve fish or meat from decay by retarding bacteria.

 

[Lush]

If you get the temp that high, it's not cold smoking...

I should have said hot smoking earlier, you are right. I am sorry, for the confusion.

The temperature that you need for hot smoking (around 72 degrees Celsius/160 fahrenheit internal temp) isn't hot enough to be sure to kill all parasites, I think. But if you raise the temp much higher you are cooking a smoked product (I define cooking: "getting it to or over 100 degrees Celsius"). That can also be done, but I don't refer to that process as smoking; that is "smoking and cooking" or smoke roasting. I hope you understand me now . I do understand you. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for the confusion and wrong interpretation of your words.

retarded bacteria? retarded bacteria, sounds funny, hahaha.

 

[santaman2000]

I should have said hot smoking earlier, you are right. I am sorry, for the confusion.

The temperature that you need for hot smoking (around 72 degrees Celsius/160 fahrenheit internal temp) isn't hot enough to be sure to kill all parasites, I think. But if you raise the temp much higher you are cooking a smoked product (I define cooking: "getting it to or over 100 degrees Celsius"). That can also be done, but I don't refer to that process as smoking; that is "smoking and cooking" or smoke roasting. I hope you understand me now . I do understand you. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for the confusion and wrong interpretation of your words.

retarded bacteria? retarded bacteria, sounds funny, hahaha.

LOL It does sound funny now that I look at it again. And yeah I think we're on the same page.

 

[lavrentyuk]

I enjoy pickling salmon and herring in particular, this doesn't involve cooking at all but I wonder if/how it kills any parasites ?

I also have recipes for curing fish in lime juice. Delicious.

Salt Cod. Another favourite.

 

[Buckshot]

I presume the bacteria are retarded due to the lack of water as water is driven off during cold smoking - similar to salting
I have some salted/air cured bacon hanging up outside atm but that will be cooked of course before eating.
I'm struggling to understand how it's OK to eat smoked salmon though, and pickled/ citrus juice cured fish as mentioned above.
Or is it accepted that those products have possible problems in the same way eggs carry salmolena (sp)?

Can anyone else shed any light on this?

 

[Gray]

We did smoke fresh water fish in a home made tipi lined with turf over a snakehole fire years ago. It was on a survival training for trainers course run by US Navy Seals and the advice there was to always bring the food back to piping hot before eating. I suppose this was just the trainers opinion but i dont know any differently im afraid.

 

[Lush]

I presume the bacteria are retarded due to the lack of water as water is driven off during cold smoking - similar to salting
I have some salted/air cured bacon hanging up outside atm but that will be cooked of course before eating.
I'm struggling to understand how it's OK to eat smoked salmon though, and pickled/ citrus juice cured fish as mentioned above.
Or is it accepted that those products have possible problems in the same way eggs carry salmolena (sp)?

Can anyone else shed any light on this?

It should be very nice if someone else can shed any light on this indeed. I still have that same question

 

[Dogoak]

Been following this thread with interest. I hot smoke fish and also do gravadlax and gravadmax.

Is this any help...........http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/document/lorena3.pdf only deals with fish but I expect the theory would be the same for meat.
Some good info here as well..........http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/lit_rev/cure_smoke_pres.html

 

[santaman2000]

We did smoke fresh water fish in a home made tipi lined with turf over a snakehole fire years ago. It was on a survival training for trainers course run by US Navy Seals and the advice there was to always bring the food back to piping hot before eating. I suppose this was just the trainers opinion but i dont know any differently im afraid.

That's generally the advise/instructions given by all the health services over here as well (the CDC, the Dept. of Agriculture, etc) It's also regulation in all military messes.

 

[santaman2000]

I presume the bacteria are retarded due to the lack of water as water is driven off during cold smoking - similar to salting
I have some salted/air cured bacon hanging up outside atm but that will be cooked of course before eating.
I'm struggling to understand how it's OK to eat smoked salmon though, and pickled/ citrus juice cured fish as mentioned above.
Or is it accepted that those products have possible problems in the same way eggs carry salmolena (sp)?

Can anyone else shed any light on this?

You're spot on about the lack of moisture being the preserving property.

As for the smoked Salmon I have two theories (I can't substantiate either one though):
1. Since Salmon is a salt water fish most of it's life (it only returns to fresh water streams to spawn at the end of it's life cycle) it'e unlikely that it has parasites the same way other freshwater fish do
2. Perhaps it's "hot" smoked in which case it is indeed cooked

Regarding the "pickled" in citus juice, that's called "civiche" (pronounced Sa-Vee-Chay) and is extremely popular in Latin America. Most of the time it's prepared with fresh caught fish to minimize danger of food poisoning. And also I've usually only seen it done with saltwater fish.

 

[Gray]

Ahh, that answers it for me. Thats what I was taught and thats what i would advise any survival student. Thanks Santa. Still doesnt specificaly answer the question though.

 

[santaman2000]

No, I know. Sorry. The truth is I'm not absolutely sure myself.