I was wondering if any of you have had the scales come off of a full tang knife. If so, what caused them to come off? What scale attachment method do you deem best--pin type, epoxy, liner, etc.? Thanks, Todd
handle scales
- Thread starter forginhill
- Start date
Since I've only been making knives for a short time, I have not had the opportunity to put them through extensive field testing. So far on full tang knives I have put two pins through the handle and glued everything together with 2 ton epoxy from the hardware store. I have not peined the pins, just glued them. Is this sufficient? I'd love to hear your experience. Todd
How long is a piece of string? 
Possibly the best thread on adhesive choice is this one:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27463
for the final run down see post 226 on page 6
www.mcmaster.com stock several of these glues. I have used Gorilla glue and the Golf shafting epoxy and both were very strong. Lots of people like Devcon 2 ton in the US, but the guys in that thread were not impressed.
Wood will tend to swell or shrink with moisture, it is particularly bad if you have not sealed it, or go to an extreme environment. I haven't actually had a handle come off, but I have heard plenty of stories of handles swelling from being constantly wet, or cracking from getting too dry.
Strongest method has to be bolts, say like Loveless bolts or the hidden ones sold by Texas Knife Supply etc, but using 4 or more 1/8 pins is pretty strong too. How long do you want the knife to last? Some of the professional makers want a knife to stay as they made it for 20 plus years, which may be overkill for someone starting out.
Some folks peen pins in wood handles, others don't. I don't and haven't had a problem yet, but peening will be stronger, provided you don't crack the handle material by mistake when you are doing it
Possibly the best thread on adhesive choice is this one:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27463
for the final run down see post 226 on page 6
www.mcmaster.com stock several of these glues. I have used Gorilla glue and the Golf shafting epoxy and both were very strong. Lots of people like Devcon 2 ton in the US, but the guys in that thread were not impressed.
Wood will tend to swell or shrink with moisture, it is particularly bad if you have not sealed it, or go to an extreme environment. I haven't actually had a handle come off, but I have heard plenty of stories of handles swelling from being constantly wet, or cracking from getting too dry.
Strongest method has to be bolts, say like Loveless bolts or the hidden ones sold by Texas Knife Supply etc, but using 4 or more 1/8 pins is pretty strong too. How long do you want the knife to last? Some of the professional makers want a knife to stay as they made it for 20 plus years, which may be overkill for someone starting out.
Some folks peen pins in wood handles, others don't. I don't and haven't had a problem yet, but peening will be stronger, provided you don't crack the handle material by mistake when you are doing it
Thanks, Chris. Have you had experience with stabilized wood? How important do you think it is versus a good oil finish (or some other applied finish) on unstabilized wood? Also in your post below, why does it say at the top that Gorilla Glue beat out the others but then farther down it says to avoid it? Thanks, Todd
forginhill said:
Full tang means when the tang goes through a drilled hole in a handle. The Gorilla Glue will expand and crack or split the wood.
But for scales expansion is good, it helps fill any gaps between the scale and the metal.
Synthetic materials like Micarta, G-10 or Corian make superior handle materials. Make your tang to scale joint as tight as possible and then use a combo of glue, pins and and expanded/flared hollow tube pin in the rear of the handle. It makes a good place to put a lanyard. Two ton epoxy seems to be the gold standard for most makers I have talked to. Strangely enough most seem to like the quick set version. I have never had such a handle fail even after excessive hammering and baton work.
I love natural material like fancy wood and I am CRAZY about stag and bone but I always think twice about beating on a knife with those types of handle scales. Some stabilized woods are nearly as dense and hard as a pure resin material.
I love natural material like fancy wood and I am CRAZY about stag and bone but I always think twice about beating on a knife with those types of handle scales. Some stabilized woods are nearly as dense and hard as a pure resin material.
Thanks for the input. It's good to hear your experience, riddleofsteel. I'd prefer to stay away from synthetics if I can. So far I've just used wood in its natural state, but I'll have to check into stabilizing. I know some guys do it themselves. I'd like to learn. Todd
Actually, the reason that Gorilla Glue is to be avoided for hidden tangs has nothing to do with cracking and everything to do with the strength of the glue in the expanded state.
Gorilla Glue DOES NOT FILL GAPS
Ok, it fills the space, but it fills it with something the consistency and stregth of styrafoam Not what you want on a hidden tang. It does however work well for gluing mortice slabs together if you glue the slabs, then glue the tang in after. Any Gorilla glue that expands into the mortice space is much easier to remove than epoxy would be.
You have to be doing a pretty poor job if you are getting gaps between a full flat tang and flat handle slabs. No excuse for it other than lack of experience since a dead flat joint can be achieved with nothing but some glass, sandpaper and spray glue If you DO have a gap, epoxy hides it much better than an expanded urethane.
Epoxy has shelf life, so don't scrimp on it, chances are you won't finish a tube, as an occasional hobbyist, before the glue starts to degrade if you are real careful how you apply it. I have a bunch of Devcon that is years old and I won't trust it.
I will reply on stabilised later, unless someone else beats me to it. I would look at : www.stabilizedwood.com/ Mike is a great bloke and the prices are hard to beat. Actually , they supply many of the other sites, and their process is one of the best.
Gorilla Glue DOES NOT FILL GAPS
Ok, it fills the space, but it fills it with something the consistency and stregth of styrafoam
Not what you want on a hidden tang. It does however work well for gluing mortice slabs together if you glue the slabs, then glue the tang in after. Any Gorilla glue that expands into the mortice space is much easier to remove than epoxy would be.You have to be doing a pretty poor job if you are getting gaps between a full flat tang and flat handle slabs. No excuse for it other than lack of experience since a dead flat joint can be achieved with nothing but some glass, sandpaper and spray glue
If you DO have a gap, epoxy hides it much better than an expanded urethane.Epoxy has shelf life, so don't scrimp on it, chances are you won't finish a tube, as an occasional hobbyist, before the glue starts to degrade if you are real careful how you apply it. I have a bunch of Devcon that is years old and I won't trust it.
I will reply on stabilised later, unless someone else beats me to it. I would look at : www.stabilizedwood.com/ Mike is a great bloke and the prices are hard to beat. Actually , they supply many of the other sites, and their process is one of the best.
...following on
If you are just starting out, getting stabilised wood is probably overkill. It is fairly pricy, and unless you have all the other elements (blade geometry, handle design, heat treatment and fit and finish) up to a certain standard I think it would be better to use natural wood and oil it. I have used a little stabilised wood and have a bunch more, but only use it on my best work. Looking back at my first knives they are pretty rough looking and I am very glad I didn't spend a lot of money on the handle materials.
Some woods, like rose wood, bocote, epe, cocobolo, blackwood...this list is long (http://ajh-knives.com/material.html
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=10436)
are oily and need little finishing. I have been particularly impressed with the water resistance of bocote and cocobolo on my own knives.
Woods like walnut, maple and birch can be soaked (even for 24 hours) in Danish Oil, which will really penetrate. I did this with some very open grain walnut, then decided that I had to narrow the handle. I filed off nearly 1/8" from each side and the oil had penetrated beyond where I stopped filing. The only sad thing was that it killed the chatoyancy dead. This isn't a problem I have had with maple, which is usually denser, but walnut can vary a lot in texture, and I am sure I have seen the same effect on curly birch.
If you are just starting out, getting stabilised wood is probably overkill. It is fairly pricy, and unless you have all the other elements (blade geometry, handle design, heat treatment and fit and finish) up to a certain standard I think it would be better to use natural wood and oil it. I have used a little stabilised wood and have a bunch more, but only use it on my best work. Looking back at my first knives they are pretty rough looking and I am very glad I didn't spend a lot of money on the handle materials.
Some woods, like rose wood, bocote, epe, cocobolo, blackwood...this list is long (http://ajh-knives.com/material.html
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=10436)
are oily and need little finishing. I have been particularly impressed with the water resistance of bocote and cocobolo on my own knives.
Woods like walnut, maple and birch can be soaked (even for 24 hours) in Danish Oil, which will really penetrate. I did this with some very open grain walnut, then decided that I had to narrow the handle. I filed off nearly 1/8" from each side and the oil had penetrated beyond where I stopped filing. The only sad thing was that it killed the chatoyancy dead. This isn't a problem I have had with maple, which is usually denser, but walnut can vary a lot in texture, and I am sure I have seen the same effect on curly birch.
Chris, that was most helpful. Thank you. That Danish Oil has been recommended to me before. Sounds like really good stuff. So, you're saying that some woods, like bocote, cocobolo, etc. don't need to be stabilized, or aren't usually stabilized because they are so dense? And about chatoyancy...if I understand the term correctly, this is only found in certain woods, right? Thanks, Todd
woods that are hard and oily don't stabilise as well as softer stuff that isn't loaded with natural resins, but those oily tropical woods are also much harder and weather proof in the natural state than the softer woods. Horses for courses.
Curling grain that causes chatoyancy can be found in a lot of woods, even ebony, but it is more common in some than others. If you want to see a range of wood, have a look at www.gilmerwood.com. I don't need any more wood since I have enough to keep me busy for years at the rate I work, but I STILL want to place an order with those guys
Curling grain that causes chatoyancy can be found in a lot of woods, even ebony, but it is more common in some than others. If you want to see a range of wood, have a look at www.gilmerwood.com. I don't need any more wood since I have enough to keep me busy for years at the rate I work, but I STILL want to place an order with those guys
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