going feral

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Samon

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 24, 2011
3,970
44
Britannia!
The class argument doesn't stand - many landowners are not wealthy by definition, never mind being in possession of "imense riches".

Victimless crime is another one I can't easily get a handle on, and I'm concerned at how acceptable some people think this is.

Let's all separate what we wish the world was like (fantasy/fiction) from what the world is actually like (fact).

You either operate within or without the boundaries of the law. It's not open to negotiation or democratic vote, and it really is that simple.

I don't want speeding tickets to give me points on my license or increased insurance premiums. I can easily avoid that outcome by choosing the option to adhere to the speed limits. Simple stuff really.

One of the greatest challenges faced by anyone wanting to go off the grid is finding a location where they won't get strung up for poaching or property damage at the very least.

What happens if permission is requested and subsequently denied ?

Unless you exit stage right double time you have already alerted the landowner to your presence, so he/she/their staff will be on the lookout for you should you decide to stay on anyway. They will also be phoning the local police and their neighbours to warn them of your presence.

It's the same natural reaction I would have if person(s) unknown was in my back garden.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. You can't justify or defend it by taking the "it's only breaking the law a little bit", or "it's not as bad as..." stance.

I can think of any number of scenarios where a keeper or estate worker could potentially be in very hot water for not detecting and/or alerting people to your presence on the estate. Intent for your activities to be victimless does not guarantee that they will be.

I own some land in the UK and in Canada I consider myself privileged in doing so. I worked bloody hard to be able to afford it and I would take exception to anyone making use of it or its resources without my express permission. Some of the land that has been handed down through generations is, in fact, among the best maintained countryside we have, and none of us has the remotest 'right' to go and make use of it as we see fit.

I guess this boils down, quite simply, to where you draw your line in the sand. I don't always agree with our laws but we'd be stuffed without them, so I adhere to them.

"It's just a few rabbits/pigeons/etc" holds no water at all, and neither does the assumption that you can do what you like on someone else's property.

At the risk of repeating myself, the biggest challenge in going off the grid is not finding food, shelter, water et al. The biggest challenge is finding somewhere where you can do it legally.

That is a very educated and understadable view, but I can't see our laws putting people off as alot of them are 'rediculous' (the new exceptions made for drug dealers for one). The 'passed down' ownership is very real though, not that it's a problem itself as like you mentioned it's well maintained but it does bring up the 'who rightfully owns land?' scenario. At the same time you should think of the 'degree' of the crime in legal terms, aslong as someone (who ever it may be) isn't defacing or comprimising the lands welfare then why shouldn't they walk freely amongst the country? After all..noone actually owns land do they? (squatters rights left a 60 year old guy with thousands of acres equating to £millions when he had been found to been living there for 40 odd years.)

From an average mans point of view it seems like all of Britian is owned and nothing is left for those who aren't rich or 'born into it'. I don't expect free land but I see people getting it for free, be it 'royals' or 'free loaders'..
 

Samon

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 24, 2011
3,970
44
Britannia!
I'm not here for politics and would like to make it clear I don't condone breaking the law. I will gracefully opt out of this 'political' debate as it's not something I'm comfortable with.

I hope the guy makes an informed decision on his actions though and has a good time learning a few things about his upcoming surroundings. :) Peace out.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
22
Scotland
"...The class argument doesn't stand - many landowners are not wealthy by definition, never mind being in possession of "imense riches"..."

That is true, however quite a sizable block of privatly owned land (30% - ish) is owned by the aristocracy, one of my former landlords the Duke of Buccleuch being one of, if not the largest landowner. The estate managment working for these people are working hard to generate income and provide employment which in many cases is probably all well and good but the reason these families own that land is because some distant ancester lopped of a French knights head, or agreed to cover a kings gambling debt, or agreed to marry a daughter to a kings b*****d etc. etc. So I think the 'class argument' does have some merit.

:)
 

Xunil

Settler
Jan 21, 2006
671
3
55
North East UK
www.bladesmith.co.uk
The circumstances of how land fell into original ownership are academic - that is what I meant by
The class argument doesn't stand

It doesn't matter whether someone did something in the dim and distant past or if they found themselves more recently with the means to buy into land ownership. The simple fact is that they own it, and those don't have no claim to it, or its resources.

It is ironic that you can buy entire estates (including the title in some cases) due to the inability of many owners to financially support, maintain and otherwise see to upkeep.

Some landowners are wealthy. Others struggle horribly to make ends meet to hold onto what they hold precious while things slowly fall apart around them.

Assumptions about those born with a silver spoon in their mouths are just that, assumptions. And it doesn't change the fact of ownership.
 

789987

Settler
Aug 8, 2010
554
0
here
ok so if you go right up north. between the A838 and the coast. and you wander about playing survival and eating stuff you can find or catch (that isnt a game item). youre trying to tell me you are jeapordising peoples welfare?
 

Grooveski

Native
Aug 9, 2005
1,707
10
53
Glasgow
Must admit it's refreshing to see folk sticking up for landowners. I know a few who don't fit the aristocracy bill.
That's not to say they don't exist, the island I grew up on was essentially an estate where locals were affected by the whims of the current laird. Just agreeing that it's not the story everywhere.

Funnily enough one is well known to the members up this way, comes along to meets and would like nothing more than to shrug off the big bad world and retire to his grandads old but'n'ben.
Reroof the cottage, fix up the sheep fencing, reclaim the walled garden then the low field from the bracken and birch.

A lot of work and perhaps not the full-out bushy adventure that a lot of folk would like to do but I agree with him that it's the best way to go about things. Between the local weather and the midgies a house makes more sense than an outdoor camp, a spud plot and a modest herd fills a fair sized gap in the hunting/fishing/foraging chain.
It's the way things have been done round here for a long time.

I've met a lot of folk through the forum and something you see a lot is respect for tradition. Some folk latch into a culture and find out many things about their self-sufficiency and ways of life. Have met folk following Sami ways adorned in scrimshawed balleen, trapper/poineer types, think I sat at a fire one night and had a drink with an elf(or he might have been a medieval sodjer)....
My hobby's always been closer to home, following well trodden deer paths through the heather or pottering in wee boats. If there's a lifestyle I've ever wanted to follow it's that of the Scottish coastal dweller.
It can be done too. I've known a few smallholders over the years and the story doesn't change, it's hard work but immensely satisfying.

Have also heard of(but never met) folk who've done the same thing with nothing but a nod of the head from the laird. Not all are the possessive types, some would rather see a croft worked than falling to ruin. There's barely a decade goes by a scottish island isn't gifted to locals.
I have a nod of the head for a cottage myself. Found the ruin during a wander one day, cracked a finders-keepers joke and was told to go for it - he could think of worse neighbours to have.

I know none of this is any help to the opening post, it's just ramblings thrown into the evolved discussion.
Trying to remember if I started out with a point but don't think there ever was one.
Maybe sowing the seed for getting a work party together. :)
More likely it would have how I preferred the access laws the way they used to be. There's less incentive these days to find out who's land you're on and strike up a rapport. If you have the right to be somewhere you don't seek permission and if you don't seek permission you don't meet landowners and if you don't meet landowners you don't get the nod of the head.
 

Highbinder

Full Member
Jul 11, 2010
1,257
2
Under a tree
ok so if you go right up north. between the A838 and the coast. and you wander about playing survival and eating stuff you can find or catch (that isnt a game item). youre trying to tell me you are jeapordising peoples welfare?

I think there is a big difference between constant traveling wild camping along the way, and setting up camp permanently on someones' land. The OP I imagine intends to find somewhere to live permanently. We may have the right to roam in Scotland but to settle on land owned by someone? Seems to be what the discussion is on.

Maybe sowing the seed for getting a work party together. :)

Very cool Grooveski!
 
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789987

Settler
Aug 8, 2010
554
0
here
oh - i took it as he was going to wander about. much like a bush crafting kung fu or the littlest hobo.

yeah - camping on someones land without permission for longer than a couple of nights isnt the done thing
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
3,723
28
50
Edinburgh
I have a nod of the head for a cottage myself. Found the ruin during a wander one day, cracked a finders-keepers joke and was told to go for it - he could think of worse neighbours to have.

...

Maybe sowing the seed for getting a work party together. :)

Ooooh, that's interesting... ;)
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,714
1,960
Mercia
A lot of work and perhaps not the full-out bushy adventure that a lot of folk would like to do but I agree with him that it's the best way to go about things. Between the local weather and the midgies a house makes more sense than an outdoor camp, a spud plot and a modest herd fills a fair sized gap in the hunting/fishing/foraging chain.

I have a nod of the head for a cottage myself. Found the ruin during a wander one day, cracked a finders-keepers joke and was told to go for it - he could think of worse neighbours to have.

Much how we have gone about things...although we bought our ruin :)

If you ever want a chat about what has worked for us and what has / is proving difficult, do feel free to give me a shout!

Red
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
Tell you what, you explain to the victims of the criminals what constitutes " some minor law breaking...........motivated by some major law breaking" and I'll lighten up. Fair enough?

Thats not a lifestyle to be emulated. Its scum on the run. For those poor people who were the victims of the minor or major crimes, I suspect its not something they would want to see others practice.

You might find minor and major criminals something to "lighten up" about. I don't.

Red

My post was on the viablity of the lifestyle and it's definite existence - not on wether I approved of it or not. That's not something to bring into this discussion. That's why I suggested you 'lighten up' or relax a little. You were putting words into my mouth. :nono:

I guess this is just another bee in your bonnet. If you really want to get into a debate on the causes of crime and it's solutions - pm me.

I still reckon the OP could manage his goal in the aforementioned parts of the north west of Scotland, for a while at least. He may even manage it without commiting any crime and *he's* apparently not motivated that way. Now isn't that a lovely romatic thought, someone following a dream.
 

789987

Settler
Aug 8, 2010
554
0
here
was probably a gimmick account - he'll be back soon with pics of his carpet covered camp and tales of drinking water from the slow moving local river.

its all about keeping the site traffic up!
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
I've had a few acquaintances and friends who have done something similar. Two of them lived long-term in benders, the others (a family) moved onto a farm to set up a community.

They didn't totally opt out of the money system. One was an electrician. One made furniture. One was a midwife, married to a teacher.

They opted out of most of the system, and managed very well. As others have said, opting out of the money system is all very well until your clothes fall apart, your tools break or you need medical help.

As for the living off the land, the friends who founded a small community set up an acre or so for veg gardening, and lived in yurts for years. They found that they still needed grains, and that it was far easier to work for money and buy grain products (flour, rice etc) than to try growing it. They also found that a family living in yurts needed a *lot* of firewood year round, and even about 10acres of wood wasn't enough to keep them in supply without getting into tree-felling.

I think you can achieve a halfway house, doing itinerant work such as lambing over winter (you might get accommodation in a bothy), build up a spot of cash, then roam during summer.
 

bearbait

Full Member
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the money system. All money is is a tradeable IOU or a YOM (You Owe Me) with an generally agreed instrinsic worth. "Money" makes it much easier to trade or barter a month's lambing work or fruit harvesting for some bacon, a new tarp and somewhere to sleep, than trying to do the trade without those bits of paper. It makes complete sense to me if it's easier to accrue these bits of paper by working for someone in order to buy goods than to produce them yourself: you get more time to do other stuff.

I had a colleague who referred to these bits of paper as Beer Tokens.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,714
1,960
Mercia
I guess this is just another bee in your bonnet. If you really want to get into a debate on the causes of crime and it's solutions - pm me.

No its not a "bee in my bonnet" - and nor should I "lighten up". Please try to avoid patronising turns of phrase.

Happy to have a discussion with you as to why crime is a bad thing and why criminals are to blame for crime if you can conduct it in a grown up fashion without trying to bait.

Red
 

SimonD

Settler
Oct 4, 2010
639
1
Lincolnshire
Much how we have gone about things...although we bought our ruin :)

If you ever want a chat about what has worked for us and what has / is proving difficult, do feel free to give me a shout!

Red

i am right in thinking you're at boston aren't i red? i would be very interested to see how you've gone about the self-sufficiency route. i am only in sleaford and have been looking for a property locally with land for a couple of years to try and become more self-sufficient. i'm yet to find what i want but i'm sure i'd be able to get loads of ideas from you for when i do...
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,714
1,960
Mercia
Of course Simon, we are still at very early stages of lowering our need for outside input - although the basic infrastructure is pretty much in place now and should be completed this year. Mad busy for the next couple of weeks but we can hook up after that if you like?

Red
 

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