Full tang or not full tang?

[Blankfisherman]

If there are any parts of this that are incorrect - I apologise.

Here goes

1. Full tang means the metal part of the blade in the handle goes all the way to the end of the handle. Is this for strength?

2. If strength is the main criteria why do some full tang blades have a stick tang and not the full width like woodlore knives?

3. What are the advantages/disadvantages of these variations?

Thanks for all responses.

Tom

 

[C_Claycomb]

I know that I have seen this discussed somewhere on here, but can't find it easily. Possibly we should dig up all the discussion on knife construction/design and put it as an article or something. So that it is easier to find without ploughing through the forum?

Full tang can be used to mean slightly different things by different makers, but generally means that you can see metal all the way around the handle. As on the Woodlore, the metal runs the full depth of the handle, not just being exposed at the rear. The handle is made of a couple of slabs pinned or bolted to the sides of the tang.

It could be argued that knives like the Falkniven A1 etc have a full tang, as it runs the full length of the handle to protrude at the butt to give a hammering surface. It is something of a matter of semantics.

The short answer for why some knives are made one way and some another, is that it comes down to the opinion of the maker! This topic has been debated back and forth on every forum you can think of and I don't think there has ever been a final agreement

If you look at the Kellam video of them abusing a knife :shock: with a hidden tang you would he hard put to say that it isn't strong enough!

There is MUCH more to good knife handle design than just strength. You want enough strength, in addition to ergonomics, ease of maintenance, comfort, security, and economics.

Hiding the tang in the handle means it cah't rust so easily, it means the handle stays warmer in cold weather, the wood can be sealed more easily and the handle shaped more easily by the maker. It also makes ballancing the knife easier, in most cases. With machine tools though it tends to require more work to enclose the tang than it does to slap a couple of flat slabs onto a full tang.

 

[Blankfisherman]

Thanks Chris

Being new I did not realsie this had been asked before - sorry.

It seems a shame that manufacturers do not sing from the same hymn sheet as each other!

This would save time and give less confusion.

Regards Tom

 

[Stew]

Being new I did not realsie this had been asked before - sorry.

Don't worry about it and welcome.

It seems a shame that manufacturers do not sing from the same hymn sheet as each other!

This would save time and give less confusion.

Do you not think that it would be a bit more boring though?

 

[C_Claycomb]

It isn't so much getting manufacturers to sing the same tune. That would be easy

I am going to the Blade Show in Atlanta and there are over 500 exhibitors there, most are knife makers, and most of those are one man bands. I can name 3 makers I know who won't be there, there must be many hundreds more. And that is just in the US. Very hard to get all those individuals to use exactly the same words to describe something as indiviualistic as a knife :-D

There are major differences between cultures too. When a Scandinavian talks about a knife maker, or custom knife maker, they mean something different from what it mean here or in the US.

I may have got a discussion here and one on www.britishblades.com mixed up :roll: always possible So don't worry!!

 

[Martyn]

If there are any parts of this that are incorrect - I apologise.

Here goes

1. Full tang means the metal part of the blade in the handle goes all the way to the end of the handle. Is this for strength?

2. If strength is the main criteria why do some full tang blades have a stick tang and not the full width like woodlore knives?

3. What are the advantages/disadvantages of these variations?

Thanks for all responses.

Tom

The variations exist because people have differnt criteria. Some want a super strong knife and put that at the top of thier list, others dont want visible metal, maybe for aesthetices or maybe because of cold weather. It's horses for courses. Generally, the full tang knife is considered stronger than the stick tang construction. But the stick tang is far from weak. A knife is as individual as the designer or maker. Terry Primos uses a rebated design, where the tang goes almost to the edge of the knife, but stops about 1/4 inch shy all round. The wooden handle slabs then get rebated to accomodate the tang. The handle slabs then get bolted on as normal - no visible steel and damned near as strong as a full tang.

See: http://www.primosknives.com/articles/mortised_tangs/mortised_tangs_1.htm

It's up to the consumer to set thier own criteria and then find a iknife that fits it (or have one made to order).

 

[Hoodoo]

In theory, the stick tang will be more comfortable to hold in your bare hands when the temps drop below freezing. For the most part, I tend to agree with that (assuming no metal in the handle material). It is also usually much lighter than a full tang which is worth thinking about when you are carrying a full ruck. The basic design, when properly executed, is tough as nails, as evidenced by the many khukiris and parangs used for heavy chopping that have stick tangs.



If the handle material of the knife should break, the full tang (not stick) will be more readily useable which is something that would be desirable in a survival knife design. The liklihood of the handle material breaking depends on many factors, but especially how well it was made and how you intend to use (or abuse) it.

The mortised tang is a wonderful compromise. You get the advantage of a full handle to grip without having to touch metal and yet beneath is a very wide tang that, if the scales were to fail, you could wrap with duct tape or a rag and still have a very serviceable blade.

The top knife (Roselli) has a partial tang or partial stick tang. The second knife down (Marbles) has a through-tang or full stick tang. The third knife down (Allan Blade) has a mortised tang and the bottom blade (Nick Wheeler/Jamie Knowlden) has a full tang. Note also that the tang tapers from just behind the ricasso to the pommel. This is called a tapered tang.

 

[bushwacker bob]

full tang, full tang ole biscuit barrel

 

[Martyn]

full tang, full tang ole biscuit barrel

LOL, reading that I had a "oh, oh, oh, I know, I know...." moment.

I just had to look that script up Bob....

Well here at Luton it's a three-cornered contest between, from left
to right, Alan Jones (Sensible Party), Tarquin Fintimlinbinwhinbimlim
Bus Stop Poontang Poontang Ole Biscuit-Barrel (Silly Party), and
Kevin Phillips Bong, who is running on the Slightly Silly ticket.
And here's the result.

Man that takes me back. I miss Python.

 

[coutel]

I have bend tested maybe 20 or so (of my own) knives in the last 2 years to check the integrity,........ not by any means scientific or conclusive!..its an ongoing process.

Its common to bend test a blade by placing a scaffold pole or similar over the handle down to the ricasso area (and the lower third of the blade is held in a vice)...Done this way, its rare any stresses are put on the handle and ricasso construction. ....Therefore, I moved the pole back to expose the lower three inches of a handle and bend to show the handle/ricasso integrity.

I found that the area just in front of the handle, the ricasso area, was a potential weakness and is often overlooked during the heat treatment process.
By weakness, I mean the steel is so soft that it bends and not spring back.

Some knives were edge quenched (a common practice especialy if a hamon is wanted)....where the hardness stops at or near the blade side of the ricasso (hamon lines usualy fade out in the ricasso by design).

This can leave the tang in a softer or even annealed state causing loss of rigidty and strength ,especialy if the tang is a thin construction (I call thin anything less than 1/4 inch!!).

Handle material may add rigidity to the tang, but the weakness may be just in front of the handle.

Including the ricasso and tang in the hardening process will add strength and rigidity...., then temper back to a usable hardness.

Tangs with soldered guards can also be a weakness if not careful...Soldering a guard at the tang/ricasso junction can sometimes soften the steel too much (anneal) if its overheated......Using a low temp solder like TIX helps.

Leaving as much steel in the ricasso area will obviously increase strength, everything else being equal (blade and tang tapering away from the ricasso so the ricasso is thickest part of the steel).


So, regardless of what sort of tang construction you have (full, hidden etc)...If the heat treatment of the area in front of the handle is questionable, then that is likely to be where the weakness will show.








kevin.

 

[bushwacker bob]

showing our age Martyn:!:

 

[The General]

If there are any parts of this that are incorrect - I apologise.

Here goes

1. Full tang means the metal part of the blade in the handle goes all the way to the end of the handle. Is this for strength?

Very much so!

2. If strength is the main criteria why do some full tang blades have a stick tang and not the full width like woodlore knives?

It keeps the steel hidden from exposure to rust. In a smaller knife the chance of failure is less based upon the Fulcrum principle.

3. What are the advantages/disadvantages of these variations?

Full tang= strength and more balance for a longer blade. Lets rust get at exposed sections, which may get under the handles.

Rat tale or hidden tang will not be as strong, but in a smaller blade this may help balance the blade and as prying is less likley, not as likely to break anyway.

Thanks for all responses.

Tom

 

[taoshan]

Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please explain what the ricasso area is?

Thanks

TS

 

[Martyn]

Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please explain what the ricasso area is?

Thanks

TS

Oh dear, Bagman is gonna hate me for dragging this old thread up, but here's your answer TS...

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=982

 

[Martyn]

showing our age Martyn:!:

Indeed. :-D

 

[taoshan]

ta

 

[Hoodoo]

Oh dear, Bagman is gonna hate me for dragging this old thread up, but here's your answer TS...

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=982

That was TOO funny! :uu:

 

[taoshan]

The irony is that I have had knives since being 6 years old, I was raised in Sheffield by a family of cutlery grinders (James Dixon & Son) and I teach axe and knife to my Scouts; and this was one item of terminology that I had never heard of!

Thanks to all (especially those friends from BritishBlades)!

:-D

 

[sargey]

Its common to bend test a blade by placing a scaffold pole or similar over the handle down to the ricasso area

sorry coutel, but common???

i'm all for hard work knife testing, but testing within normal operating parameters. it is a knife after all.

chris, going back to that little IJ puukko that was tested according to mors kochanski's test, the blade survived, but the handle was apparently broken beyond reasonable repair. but it is possible to make a stick tang knife that will survive completely intact.

some info here http://outdoors-magazine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=607 including some rather unflattering pics of your's truly. there were some interesting tests caried out on bark river knives over at a couple of places on knife forums. i can't remember the exact threads. one of the guys managed to destroy a mortise tang knife, but the handle remained intact! amazing stuff.

as for the original question, i think chris covered most of it. the various terms are often used interchangeably, even when they mean different things.

cheers, and.

 

[Adi007]

Its common to bend test a blade by placing a scaffold pole or similar over the handle down to the ricasso area

sorry coutel, but common???

I always carry a scaffold pole with me just in case I need to test my knife :-D

Great test Sargey!