flint and steel

[Tengu]

was messing around with a few bits and pieces

such as an old file and a piece of flint

and could I get a spark? not ever!

what sort of steel do I use?

 

[Goose]

An old file should work, how are you doing it?
Is there a sharp edge on your flint? With flint and steel it is a different method than a ferro rod. I hold the flint and bring the steel down glancing on the edge of a sharp area of flint. You are trying to shave a tiny piece of steel off the file with the flint, once you get the hang of getting a spark then hold your char cloth on the top edge of the flint where the sparks land and it should catch.
Is it a new file and has it been heated or treated in any way?

 

[EdS]

the file will need heat treating.

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12579&highlight=flint+steel

basically heat the steel/file until orange and let it air cool - do this 3 times.

The heat up to bright orange and hold the colour for a few minutes then quench in water.

 

[Lush]

An old file should work fine. Heat treating it like mentioned will be extra work. My old files generate sparks with flint. As long as you pay attention to what Goose sais about the sharp edge on the flint.

Some say that the serrated edge of a file hinders. You could try grinding the edge flat and smooth. I have not found the serrations to be a problem though.

You can also use the back of a knife. As long as it is a carbon steel blade, you have a very good chance. Other steel objects to try with I don't know... Stainless steels do not give off sparks, as far as I know. You could also try it on the very tip of a new file. Files are rock hard. It should work.

Let us know
Lush

 

[Ogri the trog]

Yup,
Another thumbs up for old files here - lots of blacksmith types use files as a basis for flint strikers anyway so there should be no problem with the material. The spark is created when the sharp edge of the hard flint shaves off a tiny piece of steel - tearing the molecular bonds and causing it to heat up massively.
If you do follow previous advice and grind the serrations off, go careful to preserve the heat treatment of the original item - if the metal gets too hot, you'll loose the hardness and hence the ability of the system to generate said sparks.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[Wayland]

My method for getting sparks is here

 

[Mike Ameling]

was messing around with a few bits and pieces

such as an old file and a piece of flint

and could I get a spark? not ever!

what sort of steel do I use?

There are two important things to remember about making/using a flint striker - the carbon content of the steel, and the hardness of the heat-treat.

When you strike sparks, you are using a sharp edge of the flint to dig or "chip" out little bits of steel from the face of your striker. The energy put into "chipping" out those little bits heats them up enough that the carbon in those bits burns. That's the sparks you see. The harder the steel is heat-treated, the easier it is to chip out those little bits. If the steel is heat-treated softer, then the flint digs in too much and "shaves" off too large of chunks of steel to heat up enough to start burning/sparking.

The classic example of too soft would be a knife blade. If a knife blade is heat-treated hard enough to work as a flint striker, then it is too brittle and likely to break. So you draw the temper back by heating it up a little to "soften" it a bit - especially along the back of the blade. That makes the blade of the average knife way too soft to work well as a flint striker.

Files can and do make great strikers. But too many new or modern files are Case-Hardened instead of being good quality steel throughout the file. The only part that has high enough carbon content is a very thin layer on the outside - including the teeth. The insides then are low-carbon steel. So only that thin outside layer will throw proper sparks with flint. And the teeth tend to interfere with proper striking of the flint, and eat up the sharp edge on your flint real fast.

So you need to find an all steel file. Take an old file and clamp it in a vice with about 3 inches sticking up. Drape a rag over it (to control any "shrapnel"), and then smack it with a hammer - flat on the side just above the jaws of the vice. The part sticking out should snap off easily with a light to medium hit. Then look at the edge where it broke off. It should look gray with a really fine grainy texture. This should show you that you have a good All-Steel file.

Now take that short section of file and carefully grind the teeth off along one or both edges - cooling it often. Don't let it get too hot to hold in your fingers. Also grind/smooth off any sharp edges. It should throw good sparks as is with at sharp edge on your flint.

A lot of Scout troops used to make their own flint strikers from old files like this. They work well, if you don't over-heat them and have an all-steel file to start with. Just be careful with the modern ones. Here in the States, the Nicholson brand are still all-steel, but I don't know for how much longer. And most any file with more than a score of years on it should also be good.

A NO FORGING flint striker made from an old file is a fun project. I've made a bunch, and talked a bunch of kids through making there own. They ain't pretty, but there's just something about making and using one for yourself. Altho, you will have to use a "pinch" grip to hold your flint striker instead of being able to slip several fingers through it to hold it.

I forge up over 500 flint strikers a year in dozens of styles based on original patterns from very early Roman times on up to the present. Some are simple in shape/style, and some are pretty elaborate/decorative. But I'm still drawn to that simple chunk of an old file being used as a flint striker. There's something about it's simplicity and functionality that just grabs me. I'm currently carrying around a replica of an 18th century Scottish/Flemish style shaped kind of like a snail, but a chunk of an old file is right here next to it. (I just got a new book with dozens of different flint striker styles in it - mostly 17th to 18th century British, Scottish, Irish artifacts, and I had to make some. Now I just have to forge up some more of them.)

Just my humble thoughts to share.

Mike Ameling - blacksmithing out here in the Hinterlands

 

[Eric_Methven]

Mike, what's the name of that book?

Eric

 

[BobFromHolland]

Try avoiding the flint-and-knuckle spark!!

 

[Mike Ameling]

Mike, what's the name of that book?

Eric

The book is:

The Bryant and May Museum of Fire-Making Appliances
Catalog of the Exhibits

Compiled, with an Introduction and Notes, by Miller Christy
With four hundred and ten Illustrations
Pub. in 1926
Original price Five Shillings

I don't know if the museum still exists. It's address back in 1926 was Bryant & May Ltd., Fairfield Works, Bow, London, E.3.

There was an update published in 1929 with additional info and pictures, but I don't have a copy of that.

I only know of two other books on flint strikers.

FIRE STEELS by Vittorio Cacciandra and Alessandro Cesati
ISBN 88-422-0687-3

GLI ACCIARINI or FIRE STEEL by Paolo De Sanctis and Maurizio Fantoni
ISBN 88-7143-188-9
in Italian and English

The rest of the information I find on Flint Strikers is pretty scattered - a paragraph or two in this book, or several pictures in that book, and a few originals in various museum exhibits. You really have to search to find much of anything. The better book is FIRE STEELS by Cacciandra and Cesati. Lots of good info, and some great pictures - altho most are of pretty fancy examples. The book only runs around $85 usd new. I got a copy for half that through Biblio.com, as well as the Bryant and Mays catalog (which was a bit pricey also).

Even finding these books can be a bit of a challenge. Good hunting.

Mike Ameling

 

[Mike Ameling]

Here's a pic of that 18th century Scottish/Flemish flint striker. There's just something about the shape/style that catches my eye. I made up several, and as I was forging each up, I got the feeling that this is based on an old old form of ornamentation. It's got an early Mediteranian feel to it - possibly Minoan or Carthaginian. I know I've seen this shape used in other objects before, and from a very early time. Must be time to "hit the books" again.

Some of the shapes of old tools appear to have and almost "instinctive" feel to them - - sort of a "genetic memory" type thing. I don't quite know how else to explain it, but this flint striker shape just has that feeling for me.

It's either that, or my level of adult malted beverage has dropped too low again.

Mike - yee ol grumpy German blacksmith out here in the Hinterlands

 

[Lush]

Here's a pic of that 18th century Scottish/Flemish flint striker. There's just something about the shape/style that catches my eye. I made up several, and as I was forging each up, I got the feeling that this is based on an old old form of ornamentation. It's got an early Mediteranian feel to it - possibly Minoan or Carthaginian. I know I've seen this shape used in other objects before, and from a very early time. Must be time to "hit the books" again.

Some of the shapes of old tools appear to have and almost "instinctive" feel to them - - sort of a "genetic memory" type thing. I don't quite know how else to explain it, but this flint striker shape just has that feeling for me.

It's either that, or my level of adult malted beverage has dropped too low again.

Mike - yee ol grumpy German blacksmith out here in the Hinterlands

Very nice one Mike. Wow. It's like each word yo use to describe it kind of makes it even nicer. You know how to put it into words! Realy very nice form, very functional also. I am inspired. I saved the picture and will try to make one... thanks for posting.

Lush

 

[Galemys]

The book is:

The Bryant and May Museum of Fire-Making Appliances
Catalog of the Exhibits

Mike,

are there any pictures of fire pistons in this book?

Tom

 

[spamel]

That looks like a rams head to me. Nice!

 

[Mike Ameling]

Mike,

are there any pictures of fire pistons in this book?

Tom

Hi, Tom.

Yes, they show pictures of 6, and list 12 in the catalogue of exhibits. They show one from cane, buffalo horn, wood, and several brass. The brass ones were made in England and France around 1834. The others came from places like Burma, Sumatra, Sarawak, Phillipines, and one bought in Scotland.

They also have pictures of 10 or so hand drill kits, a bow drill kit, a rope/saw kit, and two fire saws.

The Bryant and May company bought the patent for Strike Anywhere matches back in the 1800's, and was one of the leading manufacturer's of matches on into the 1900's - according to what the wrote in the book. Thus their interest in Fire Making in all it's forms, and their eventual collection and museum. It would be nice to know if any of this collection still exists, and if it is still on display somewhere.

They have descriptions of the various methods in the first part of the book, then the catalogue of exhibits, then pictures of some of the items. Chapters covered in the descriptions of fire starting methods are:
Tinder
The Wood-Friction Methods
The Flint-and-Pyrites Method
The Flint-and-Steel Method
The Quartzite-and-Iron Method
The Optical Methods
The Comprressive Method
The Chemical Methods ("Instantaneous Lights")
The Friction Match

A GREAT LITTLE book! I got my copy using the rare and out-of-print book search web site www.biblio.com My copy came from Chantrey Books from Sheffield, and cost L32 plus shipping to the States. But it was well worth it to me!

Now I have to find a copy of the update they published in 1929 - that I want to afford!

From only finding two books of flint strikers to now having 3 good books is great - from the reseach point of view. And it's getting me more inspired to do my own little "sketchbook" of flint strikers - by time period, geographical/cultural area, and the steps I take to forge up each particular style.

If you are really interested in the history of fire making, have a few extra coins to rub together, and chance upon this book, pick it up. O K more than just a FEW coins to rub together.

Now to get out to the shop, fire up the forge, and beat up some steel. Hopefully, the "keeping" pile ends up larger than the "scrap" pile.

Mike Ameling - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands of Nouvelle France

 

[Galemys]

Hi, Tom.

Yes, they show pictures of 6, and list 12 in the catalogue of exhibits. They show one from cane, buffalo horn, wood, and several brass. The brass ones were made in England and France around 1834. The others came from places like Burma, Sumatra, Sarawak, Phillipines, and one bought in Scotland.

Thank´s Mike, much appreciated, I´ll be on the lookout for this book.
Two more questions about it:
I´ve never heard of a fire piston made from cane, does it look like cane or more like bamboo? (or is cane a generic term that also includes bamboo?)
Does the book also mention the flint (or pottery) on bamboo percussion method and if so do they give any references?

Cheers,

Tom

PS I believe the Bryant museum collection was taken over by the Science museum but I can´t look into their catalogue online.

 

[Mike Ameling]

Thank´s Mike, much appreciated, I´ll be on the lookout for this book.
Two more questions about it:
I´ve never heard of a fire piston made from cane, does it look like cane or more like bamboo? (or is cane a generic term that also includes bamboo?)
Does the book also mention the flint (or pottery) on bamboo percussion method and if so do they give any references?

Cheers,

Tom

PS I believe the Bryant museum collection was taken over by the Science museum but I can´t look into their catalogue online.

Hi, Tom.

Sorry, cane and bamboo tend to get used to refer to the same thing - said from a perspective where neither is native. The one pictured is of bamboo. There is no mention of the flint/bamboo percussion method. Neither is there any mention of repeatedly hammering iron to heat it up to start a fire. The chapters (sections) I listed below are all that were covered in the book/catalogue.

So goes this journey into the past.

Mike