feuerpumpe fire starting method

[mrsfiremaker]

Thanks to Galemys for this term for the fire piston!

I have been doing my best to research the fire piston and this gave a good lead. However, my German is..well...nonexsistant. I can give an educated guess on a phrase or paragraph but for better translating I go for an online translator. This is what I found, and its just directly translated for you so its a bit rough.

TRANSLATION FROM GERMAN: report by Michael Becker

http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.ijon.de/sonst/feuerg.html

Fire pumps

With this method by strong compression air is so strongly heated up that it can bring the scale to the glowing. Usually it made in such a way is that in a down closed cylinder from metal or glass (or wood?) a well fitting piston is pressed rapidly downward.
This pneumatic, compression or air lighter were invented approx. 1770 by DuMontier. In European households it did not find a spreading, since there were already better methods of the fire production at this time. But by the Portuguese the principle of the fire pump came to Hinterinden, where it was applied in Nordborneo and to the Philippines (with a bamboo cane). It may also be that the fire pump admits there already longer was, and the brothers DuMontier of sailors of it experienced.

Nevertheless it is actually wrong to incorporate the fire pump under the archaischen methods because even in Europe the pneumatic principle is used in millionfold way: The ignition of the fuel in (already current) Diesel engines functions in this way.

Hinterindien--fire pump method was used in this location. (South East Asia peninsula)

I thought some of you might find this interesting as there have been a lot of questions here about the fire piston. The history is debated on whether it is primitive or modern. Since I do not know enough German terms yet, I have not been able to get the rest of the words together to search more on who DuMontier is and more to support the year that it was invented. I found many sources referring to this but they are so similar that they look as though they came from the same source.

To me however, (and this does not support Darrel's full opinion), is that the fire piston was indeed patented in England in 1807 but was invented in 1770 elsewhere, in Germany perhaps or France where compression by fire was discovered. This also supports that the modern fire piston was taken to Hinterindien, S.E. Asian Peninsula and then disturbed from there, until the third generation brought it as far as Madagascar. But even this source discredits that by saying that DuMontiers brothers may have found it in SE Asia during their voyages. From 1770 to 1865, there are 95 years between the modern invention of the fire piston and the big report down for the Smithsonian Institute. I have a bunch more leads now so I'll get to use a little of my French and see what I come up with. If anyone here has any information, feel free to let us know.

ALSO: We were doing research on known information. Mel Deweese has given multiple dates between 1965 and 1976 that he found the fire piston in use in the Phillipines. Upon talking to him, he does not know the village name, the island name, the area of an island, whether or not he was on the north, south, east, or west side of an island, and obviously he doesnt remember the year. So we started doing research on this and found that the Hubba Hubba Bubble gum that he gave in part for the trade of the fire piston was not produced commercially by Wrigley Jr. Co. until 1979.

We also have a friend who was stationed in the Phillipines in the 80's. In 1984, he was given a fire piston by a native elder, although it was taken by customs on his way back home as an artifact. At that time, the fire piston was no longer in use with this tribe.

Have fun with this!

Becky

 

[Toddy]

Hmmm, interesting.

Bye the bye, I distinctly remember chewing hubble bubble gum in the early 1960's so some variation of the name has certainly been about a while. It came in little round discs about half an inch thick and about the size of an old *Britannia* penny.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Tourist]

Toddy, I remember the bubble gum - but I cannot remember what it was called.

MrsFirestarter, I went to the Imperial War Museum in London a few months back and found a fire piston on display there. It had been used in WW2 by an employee of British American Tobacco whilst a prisoner of the Japanese in Indonesia.

Point of interest: Hinterindien, or as it is otherwise known, die Hinterindische halbinseln, is considered to be made up of Malaysian archipelogo and Indochina (Vietnam) - not so much the whole of south east asia.

I have the piccies of the WW2 fire piston somewhere and can send them over to you if'n you want.

 

[mrsfiremaker]

http://www.candyfavorites.com/shop/catalog-gum-history.php

Bakooka bubble gum has been around since 1938 while dubble bubble bubble gum has been around since the 1940’s. Hubba Bubba bubble gun was first made in 1979.

Multiple sources confirm this, unless it was brought to Europe earlier. But I do know that dubble bubble bubble gum was invented earlier and maybe that was the kind you had.

I started off with the same idea, that it was older, and only proved myself wrong. Anyhow, it is interesting information and only adds to the mystery of the story.

Becky

 

[mrsfiremaker]

Thank and I would be very interested in seeing them. email is jett666@emily.net

Agian, thank you very much!

Becky

 

[Toddy]

The Bazooka stuff we got was in squares while the hubble bubble was round. The Bazooka stuff had a most peculiar flavour, like germoline
I don't think the UK imported many sweeties, American chocolate was vile, like our scotbloc cooking chocolate...now there's a blast from the past I don't think *any* child nicked that stuff from the pantry twice
Caramac though....drool, or Fry's chocolate creme or Galaxy......

Kind of off topic, sorry.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[combatblade1]

Toddy bazooka and super bazooka also came in round discs as you described, the squares had the comic in them the round discs didnt.

 

[Tourist]

Thank and I would be very interested in seeing them. email is jett666@emily.net

Agian, thank you very much!

Becky

Sent, your welcome.

 

[mrsfiremaker]

Darrels comment about the chocolate: laughs "I know I didn't!" (go back for seconds)

It is possible that the gum you have there was called hubble bubble while the stuff here is hubba bubba bubble gum, very possibly a name that Wrigleys changed up a bit with their version of it later.

On both occasions, Darrel spoke with Mel Deweese. I just got off the phone with him myself. One, the first time he saw a fire piston in use by natives was in 1965. He acquired his in 1975. I asked him, “You said you traded it for Hubba Hubba Bubble Gum?” “Yes” “Are you sure it wasn’t Dubble Bubble bubble gum?” “No, it was Hubba Hubba Bubble gum.” “Are you sure, because Hubba Bubba Bubble gum wasn’t invented until 1979.” “1979? Well its gum I got at the Navy base.”

I asked about the location. He could not remember but it was in the Zamables province of the Philippines. His was made of Water Buffalo Horn and wood. It was about 3 inches long, 1 inch in diameter, and the rod is 3 inches long.

So that is a bit less vague than the other information out there and offers yet another lead. This is also consistent with both the dates that he gave Darrel. Now they make more sense.

Becky

 

[Tourist]

Toddy bazooka and super bazooka also came in round discs as you described, the squares had the comic in them the round discs didnt.

I remember the Bazooka Joe comics.

 

[mrsfiremaker]

Point of interest: Hinterindien, or as it is otherwise known, die Hinterindische halbinseln, is considered to be made up of Malaysian archipelogo and Indochina (Vietnam) - not so much the whole of south east asia

Thank you very much for the correction! This is the stuff Im trying to sort out through translating or otherwise searching. I took the word, pasted it into Yahoo and added "what is" behind it and it gave me a description with a picture that showed and stated the SE Asia Peninsula. Rather vauge. Thanks for the much better descripition!

Pictures are recieved. THANKS! The included infomation will be useful as well.

Becky

 

[Galemys]

Hi Becky,

I found this (from:
http://class.csueastbay.edu/anthropologymuseum/virtmus/Philippines/Overall/CulturalMig.htm)

Based on resemblances between isolated remains of indigenous cultures in Assam, Indonesia, parts of Indochina, and the Philippines, A.L. Kroeber postulated a "Southeast Asiatic" culture area that existed before the arrival of influences from major civilizations (a few centuries before the Common Era). The list of cultural similarities is impressive; they include "kaingin agriculture; rice terraces; meat consumption chiefly in connection with sacrifice; betel chewing; gabled thatch houses raised from the ground; tree houses; bark cloth; cotton; tie-dying of warps; brimless caps; wearing of combs; tooth-filing; tattooing; fire cord or saw; fire piston; vertical piston bellows; gongs of bronze of brass considered valuables; bow of bamboo; blowgun; girls' house; religious festivals given to promote or preserve one's social status; head hunting; human sacrifice; bamboo altars; cult of ancestral spirits; divination; plurality of souls."
However, he does not give a very exact date for this culture.

I can´t find any other source than the Ogata article about the fire piston in Madagascar, although I also searched with several French words for the fire piston (briquet pneumatique is the most common used word for fire piston in french). In this next link however it is suggested that the blowgun was introduced to the island from Indonesia so it is very plausible that the fire piston came along in the same manner
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-8306.1970.tb00752.x
There´s linguistic and cultural evidence that part of the people in Madagascar came from Borneo:
http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0708-wildmadagascar.html
The Dutch wikipedia entry also states that the malagasy language `is strongly related to
the language of the Ma'anjan and Dayak at the Barito river, Borneo` and the English wikipedia says the first human settlers of Madagascar appear to have come from Asia, rather than Africa, between 100 and 500 AD.

So it could be that the fire piston is that old but there is still no conclusive evidence for fire pistons outside Europe before the 1800´s.

I think we need an archeologist or maybe someone linguistically schooled to prove the antiquity of this method.

Cheers,

Tom

 

[mrsfiremaker]

Thank you again Galemys. My curiosity lies with this DuMontier inventor. I am currently searching what his first name is and more information as to exactly where in Europe the fire piston was invented and in what year. I have seen scant information stating 1770 before but now that I am seeing it many times, it may very well be plausible. There are conflicting reports as the years that it was discovered, invented as a tool and finally patented in England and they are all jumbled up and misquoted on many sites.

Darrel believes that the fire piston is very primitive to SE Asia. I also know that the big 1907 Smithsonian Annual Report is one person who got many different reports and took out the fire piston information that was therein. I would like to read the full reports. (I misquoted it as 1865 before, which is a date that is about the earliest it was discovered by European explorers, according to the report.)

I did not save my reference to the third generation that made it to Madagascar. I will look some more and see what else this may lead to.

Becky

 

[Galemys]

Hi Becky,

I will PM Jodie about this thread, she's very good at finding things on line.

Will you thank gm69camaro over at paleoplanet for the Balfour article pictures he put up? As I only had the text of the article, these images add a lot to it!

Cheers,

Tom

 

[Jodie]

Ooooooh <is intrigued>

I think this might be an opportunity to introduce myself to the patent people at the
British Library, however I don't know if they can look at international patents rather
than just UK ones.

When I worked at a place called Science Line we were always getting questions of
this nature - trying to find out the history of or the first instance of some tool or
technique. It was always fun trying to find out although I never did find who made
the first ever pole lathe ;-)

From where can I download this Balfour article?
I'm pretty sure TobyH speaks (or has reasonable) German.

So what's the time frame? My first glance of the posts below suggests somewhere
between 500CE and 1770CE (CE = common era) but I might have to read them a bit
more closely!

Does it work on a similarish principle to car cigarette lighters but doesn't use electricity
to get hot (ie nothing like car cigarette lighters at all)?

Jo

 

[Galemys]

From where can I download this Balfour article?

Hi Jodie,

I had two links to online versions of the Balfour article (text only) but both seemed to have vanished and are no longer working. I have E-mailed you the version I had on my own computer that was copied from one of those sites. It is a bit lengthy but the best overview article I know on the fire piston.

Fire pistons work on the principle that any given volume of air will heat up when compressed. It is the reverse of the cooling effect you feel when you empty a spray can.

If you google a bit (or search this site) you will find schematic drawings, photographs and even video material of fire pistons. There are acrylic see-through versions for scientific demonstration but the most pleasing to the eye are made by some very skilful members on this site.

Cheers,

Tom

 

[Goose]

Jodie, it is compression ignition, same as a diesel engine. Put your finger over the end of a bicycle pump and push the piston down, you compress the air and it gets hot, not hot enough to start an ember but it is the same principal.

I heard mention, nothing to back it up, that the fire piston may have its origins in the making of blowpipes. Accidental fires and embers whilst drilling through the pipe, people put two and two together?

Edit; Just realised what your comparison to a car ciggarette lighter meant, yes the bit you pull out has an ember and would resemble it!

 

[Tourist]

I had a quick look at the German article written by Michael Becker and have done a quick translation of the Preface and the fire piston paragraph.

If anyone is going to have a trawl around patent offices try the European Patent Office as most things are centralised thru those nowadays. It may be that UK patent offices have an online link to those. The British Library reading room in Boston Spa can also be helpful - if the right person is on duty.

http://www.epo.org/



VORBEMERKUNGEN / PREFACE

This small/short text is the result of the attempt to discover who invented/discovered the lighter. It was found that the lighter has had a very long development / design / invention / improvement period and that it is impossible to determine / decide what can be called a lighter and what not. During the last hundred years several components have been adapted and improved.

Missed para.

I had two books about the subject available to me, however, they differed slightly in the names of inventors/discoverers and in the timelines.

(a)
Georg Brandes & Rolf Jarschel
Feuer und Flamme; Interessantes vom Feuerzeug
VEB Sachbuchverlag Leipzig, 1988
ISBN 3-343-00453-7.
(b)
Ad van Weert
Faszinierende Feuerzeuge; Die Geschichte des Feuerzeugs - Vom Schwefelhölzchen zum Designobjekt
Aus dem Holländischen übersetzt.
Universitätsdruckerei und Verlag H. Schmidt, Mainz 1995
ISBN 3-87439-341-0.

The first book is a typical popular science book that discusses and presents firemaking methods up to the second world war. It provides brief biographies of inventors, chemistry, and provides a bibliography in which firemaking methods are presented / discussed.

The second book is for collectors. It presents many glossy pictures of lighters concerning itself mainly with lighters of this century (20th Century?) and in part presents very modern developments. Older methods are mentioned briefly.

Feuerpumpen - Fire Piston

Using this method air is so highly heated by compression that it can make tinder glow [a colloquialism for ignite]. It is mainly done / performed by using a cylinder made from metal or glass (or wood?) which is sealed at the bottom and has a well fitting piston that is quickly / rapidly pushed downwards.

This pneaumatic, compression or air lighter was discovered / invented by DuMontier in ca. 1770. However, it did not find any popularity in European households as at that ttime there were already better methods of producing fire / flames / ignition. But, through the Portuguese the principle of the fire piston was transported to Hinterindien, where it was applied (using a bamboo pipe) in North Borneo and the Phillipines. It could be though that the fire piston was already well known there and that the DuMontier brothers heard about it from sailors.

However, it is principally false / wromg to line up the fire piston with the archaic methodologies, because even in europe the pneumatic principle is used by millions: the ignition of fuel in diesel engines works in this way.

 

[Jodie]

Today I was in the British Library looking up fire piston stuff and I had rather a lot of fun!

First up was "The origins and developments of fire arms and gunpowder from the fire drill,
flint and pyrites, fire piston etc." by the Rev P.H. Francis (1961). Some of what he had
to say seemed to be contradicted by an article I found later, and some of the information
seems to be well known already but there were some interesting bits nonetheless.

In addition to their use in S.E. Asia, Philippine Islands and China they have also been
used in scientific demonstrations to show that heat is generated when air is compressed.

Francis, referring to Balfour, suggests that perhaps the similarity between fire pistons and
mortars and pestles provides clues to the pistons' origin although others have discounted
this.

Apparently though fire pistons in the British Museum bear a striking resemblance to
Bornean fire pistons and Malay people apply the word 'gobek' to both instruments - I
expect someone here will be able to confirm / deny that!

The picture given is of a metal fire piston from Sarawak now in the Cambridge Univ.
ethnological museum.

The early 1800s seemed to be the time for fire pistons as Richard Lorentz patented
a 'fire walking stick' in 1807 which was 12 inches long. In the same year, Joseph Mollet
produced a 4.5 inch 'pneumatic tinder box' which used amadou as the tinder.

That was Chapter 4 but I had a quick look at some of the other chapters which discussed
the drill methods for firemaking and the mythology behind them. Very 'birds and bees'.

There was a nice quote from Charles Darwin who had a go with the stick and groove
method:
"A light was procured by rubbing a blunt-pointed stick in a groove made in another, as if
with the intention of deepening it, until by the friction the dust became ignited. ... The
fire was produced in a few seconds: but to a person who does not understand the art,
it requires, as I found, the greatest exertion; but at last, to my great pride, I succeeded
in igniting the dust."

Then I found this article online (available only from within the reading rooms at the
British Library or somewhere that has a subscription to this journal):

Fox, R. (1969) The fire piston and its origins in Europe Technology and Culture
10(3):355-370. (R = Robert).
He mentions that the device is also known as tachypyrion, aerophore (which seemed
unlikely as I think that's a name for a chemical substance but I don't know what),
pyrophore and fire syringe.

He mentioned 1802 as a significant date but suggested that it was in 1806 that the first
fire piston became commercially available in France.

Apparently Joseph Mollet wrote a letter to the Institute of Paris which was read on Dec
29 1802; he described the ignition of linen and the flash that sometimes occurred during
ignition but for some reason this information was ignored. In 1804 there was a successful
demo of this phenomenon.

In February 1806 the Journal de Physique contained a rief announcement that the
celebrated instrument maker Dumotiez of Paris was producing the 'briquet pneumatique'.

This paper mentions that they had consulted the 1807 patent (number 3007) which was
in the Patent Office in London.

Apparently fire pistons were widely used in the Lake District until matches took over.

The article also suggested that it was not possible to discount the notion that possibly
the fire piston was developed in the west and taken from Britain to S.E. Asia in the
latter part of the nineteenth century. Despite the fact that it seems to have been largely
a French invention and well known in scientific circles, the French were not particularly
involved in Asia at that time and so it's suggested the British may have introduced it...
sounds intriguing but I expect this will have been discounted now - I didn't read anything
published later than 1969.

Fox concludes with "The evidence establishes conclusively, I think, that credit for the
invention of the European instrument must now be given to Joseph Mollet and his
ingenious friends and colleagues in Lyon".

European domestic fire pistons in the science museum in London, the Pitt Rivers museum
in Oxford and the Museum of the History of Science in Oxford.

So... I didn't find anything earlier than 1807 I'm afraid but I wonder if the various Royal
Societies and other scientific institutions might be able to cast a bit more light on this?

Very interesting reading anyway
Jo

 

[gorilla]

http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html
another article - not sure if it contains anything new