Oh, believe me, I couldn't agree more. Our responses to offending behaviour are almost completely counterproductive, in my view. But there's a very important distinction to be made between recognising the seriousness of the issue, and being in favour of the current approach taken by criminal justice system.
Every child a Victim of crime?
- Thread starter BOD
- Start date
-
Come along to the amazing Summer Moot (21st July - 2nd August), a festival of bushcrafting and camping in a beautiful woodland PLEASE CLICK HERE for more information.
Oh, believe me, I couldn't agree more. Our responses to offending behaviour are almost completely counterproductive, in my view. But there's a very important distinction to be made between recognising the seriousness of the issue, and being in favour of the current approach taken by criminal justice system.
Just to clarify... From the original linked article, the proposed approaches to dealing with the problem are "to expand programmes that teach children about conflict resolution, mediation and taking responsibility for their actions."
Not "bang 'em up".
Not "bang 'em up".
To me this sounds like PC waffle, the normal language of modern government.
No, I don't have a better or more correct answer to this either, before anyone asks. The idea of sitting kids down and saying `you must really be more responsible, and not go punching young timmy or else he'll feel bad` does absoloutely nothing.
`conflict resolution` and `mediation` are typical types of phrases and words banded about by government institutions that have no real understanding of the issues. I can't really see bullies sitting down and saying `I recognize that we disagree but that no further action needs to be taken`
This PC waffle as you call it, was called manners in my youth, conflict resolution and mediation was what two or more adults did when their kids got involved in some fisticuffs, often the resolution was dont beat up on the little kids of youll get a smack round the legs from your mam and da.
I know the youth of today get a bad press, and that is in my opinion 100% wrong, they are not the ones at fault, if you dont know any better, you dont know any better.
They are aping their elders and betters If I had a penny for every time I heard a parent say Im sick of telling you to their kids, I would be in the south of France wifiing this from my yacht.
People dont want to accept that it is their Job to tell their kids off a million times a day, it is their job to sort out a million minor problems with their kids and their kids friends. It is their job, and they can not resign their responsibility to the government, the job of the government is to govern, and the job of the parents it to parent, noun "to rear, bring up; raise a family; bring up the children".
The kids are not failing, you can not fail something that is not taught to you, their parents are the ones who are failing. If you want to improve the kids, teach their parents. You only have to watch any of the supernanny or house of tiny tearaways to know that 99% of the time, the fault lies with the adults.
i say bring back the cane...i know it dosen't work on every kid, but it would make some of them think about what they are doing.
we need to get ride of the pc brigade that is riding on the back of the useless labour goverment that is in power at this moment of time.
i'm fed up of the yogot knitters telling us what is right and wrong.it is this country look like a joke
we need to get ride of the pc brigade that is riding on the back of the useless labour goverment that is in power at this moment of time.
i'm fed up of the yogot knitters telling us what is right and wrong.it is this country look like a joke
Theres this deep rooted fallacy among the education industry that you learn to "socialise" at school (not at home, the nuclear 2 parent family being condemned as a regressive and outdated institurtion
). So you get an artificial social situation where a large group of bored kids the same age all spend 11 or so years "studying" together (where else do you get a "social" group of people all the same age? not even in the army, yet they persist with this outdated notion that they should be grouped according to age, ignoring the fact that different kids develop at different rates and different ways, and that you need to mix with all ages and types to learn real social skill's, rather than adopting "coping" and "managing" strategies, and how to survive peer pressure). Thats the social engineering politically correct theory at least. Maybe theres an element of truth to it. But you can also be subject to peer pressure to de-socialise as well. You get to learn ways to get attention, get "respect", defy authority, how to go with the flow, how to be "cool". How many head techer's will say "oh yes, we DO have a bullying problem in our school"? No, none of them. Exclusively they will say "we have our anti bullying policy in place" and pretend everything is fine. I have had a 100% response in this way when visiting possible schools for my kids, even in one case where I took my 3 year old to a possible nursery school, and while the head "teacher" was giving all the photocopied spiel about this and that initiaitive (the usual PC garbage) 2 kids already in the school were attacking my boy repeatedly (slapping and shoving), while the head was looking (oh yes she knew what was going on), and she did NOTHING about it?? So I intervened and said (loudly) now STOP that NOW, they almost filled there pants they were so shocked. She got her precious policy in place though, so thats something to praise isnt it. If its like that on a first visit, what would it be like if he was there permanent? I'd teach him to hit back and hard, never mind treat them as tiny adults and resolve conflict etc by reasoned debate.I was bullied for a while when I went from a private school to a grammar (which became comprehensive in 1977) One lad in particular had it in for me. Then one day I lost it, I smacked him so hard he flew backwards through a plate glass window, luckily he wasnt cut. He was so shocked he never said anything to me for awhile. The head teacher made us pay hallf each for the glass, he never bullied me after that (neither did anyone else). In fact we became good mates.
As for "manners" dont make me laugh, people didnt have to go through awareness courses and diversity courses and gender courses and so on to have good manners in say 1920. They had them or they didnt. The PC industry has made a right meal out of asserting their supposed indispensability, and also attempting to indocrinate the population that to be Polite social citizen, you naturally must aspire to be politically correct
Maybe theres an element of truth to that. But how do you explain the inroads made by sucessive generations of social scientists and engineers to interefere with and eventually overturn parental responsibnility and authority? Huh? Since the 60's the middle class professional marxist experts have been saying how we need to educate to avoid ignorance etc. Who taught those parents, what values were they indoctrinated with as kids, what school did they go to, where did they learn there social skills? They came through the social theory's of the 60's and 70's didnt they? Or were they brought up in nunnery's or utopia or somewhere? Tiny adults (remeber Reggie Perrin's mad marxist daughter-theyre not children, theyre tiny adults
) If the state doesnt value parental authority (rather scorns it) why should a parent value it?
Whoa!
Just to clarify.
My objection is to the criminalization of childhood behaviour especially in the under 10s for the reasons mentioned in the original post.
There is some behaviour that children and young teenagers are capable of which is criminal killing others, rape, serious beatings, theft (in the strict legal definition ) and should be dealt with by the criminal law i.e. the state.
When I read that nearly all children are a victim of crime I am pretty sure that the definition of crime is being expanded or that the interview technique is flawed. The UK for all its ills is not that bad. Some readers may recall the injustices that occurred in the US a decade or so ago when interviewers, with an agenda, questioned children and convinced them that normal physical contact with parents and other adults amounted to something bad resulting in statements that were used in prosecutions.
We should be wary of treating all undesirable behaviour as crime. As a recipient of much bullying at school and an occasional bully myself, I do not belittle the seriousness of this phenomenon. I was the loser in a fist fight with a kid in the 1st XV, received regular harassment for not being a Anglo-Australian and as a house prefect doled out physical and psychological punishments almost exclusively to those "tearaway" kids who were often the ringleaders in giving other kids misery. Did I pay-back those who gave me a hard time? Yes, when their behaviour to others warranted it.
However much of what I experienced is a normal phase of growing up. I was a voluntary participant in that fight and learnt that sometimes it is best not to continue even if you think you are right. I learnt to handle those kids who do not understand difference and diversity. In a similar way to the strengthening of the human immune system by exposure to illness, you are learning about the world and building up your skills and defences, psychological and physical, by the events of childhood. You learn to cope and how to get over it. If every sneeze and cough gets antibiotics you are inhibiting your immune system.
Most of the kids I went to school with I am good friends or good acquaintances with. I cannot think of any who I would avoid because I fear or hate them. We learnt mediation, peer counselling, self-restraint, remorse without being taught anger management, counselling programmes by the school. It was true experiential learning. (That should not be read that it ought not to be taught in school). I also learnt that when people were angry or aggressive to me there was a reason behind it and, if I could address that, often a resolution could be reached without surrendering,.
All this served me in good stead later in life in my jobs, in the military and a near decade long year stint in South East Asia working for human rights. Besides the odd bullying boss, I have faced angry trainees with knives, an enraged soldier with a loaded M16, raids by secret police and questioning, threats and intimidation by other security services. I just mention the most serious ones.
Without having had the chance to learning my own limits and those of others, I think I would have been in serious trouble and would have been psychologically harmed by the stress.
But shouldnt we expect better? Of course, but it will never be perfect and to rely on the criminal law and state authority is a dangerous erosion of everyones liberty. I can assure you it is far better to live with the level of crime in Thailand than in Burma(Myanmar) where violence and coercion is mainly the monopoly of the state.
Even in well-meaning states like the UK, the criminal justice system is a clumsy instrument at best. We serve our children better if responsibility is vested in strong parental authority supported (and censured if necessary) by strong civil and school communities and peers. Even a local bobby to give a ticking off to the larrikins. The state is a last resort not the first line
I think I read somewhere on BCUK a post where it was said that every child needs a village to grow up in. An African saying I believe.
I guess that in your country as well as mine the growing state and consumer capitalism have destroyed the village community.
But what of societies with over-intervention? On returning to Australia I worked as a tutor and lecturer at university. In my time we accepted a low mark on essays as deserved and asked how we could do better. Now students appeal not to you but to a panel, whose time is usually wasted by the process. You have to keep your room door open with students of either sex for fear of an allegation of sexual harassment. A post grad student offered to sell me his WordPerfect installation disks. I had never met him. He emailed that we could meet outside the library. I replied, Inside. Warmer (it was winter). He reported me for sexual harassment, before we even met!! Why? Apparently, warmer means homosexual in German slang! The University Equity Office, staffed by militant lesbians (and proud of it) dismissed the claim. A great bunch. But it could have been damaging had there not been sensible people there.
This is a result of oversensitising people to certain behaviour and by bringing in institutions to regulate the policy instead of leaving it initially to the individuals concerned to work it out themselves. Too early intervention creates resentment to authority and possibly a victim mentality.
My fourth child has develped a bit of a victim mentality. She is 6. She does not see that she provokes other children and that their reaction is a result of that. She often complains that her siblings and people are "mean" to her. She is easily hurt when her affectionate and enthusiatic nature is not reciprocated. As a result of her education (British system and teachers in an international school) she expects that teacher will scold the other kids for small slights or cruelties. She thinks we are not her friend when we do not do the same. I am worried that she will turn into a whinger.
Sometimes matters get out of hand and decisive intervention is needed. The effect of intervention is increased when it is used sparingly I believe.
Anyway, response and rant over. I apologise to any I have offended or whose blood pressure has risen as a result of my post.
I have learnt a lesson too drink a second or third cup of coffee before posting your reaction to what you read in the morning paper!
Cheers!
Ash
Well, I largely agree with all of that BOD. However, I have to point out that in the article which you linked to, the were pretty explicit about not using the criminal justice system to resolve these issues. If they were proposing that, it would be a rather different matter.
Seems to me that you were objecting to something that nobody was actually proposing.
Seems to me that you were objecting to something that nobody was actually proposing.
I would ask what the teachers think they can do to intervene and what they would do
the ones i know are fairly clear they are not allowed to touch a kid even those fighting for fear of being prosecuted of assault
they can stand there and reason 
yep stupid i know (well to me)
espesally as one is a tiny 5ft female whos very quiet and restrained and most of her students male ones tower over her and out class here by a fair bit of weight she would be the one to lose her carrer if she tryed so firmly saying "please can you stop that" is about all thats avalible.
plus Teachers seem more n more to come straight from school themselves so have little or no idea of the real world and are only a few years older than some students and are indoctrinated into the system that the older teachers have to relearn
unfortuatly a Bullying policy wont overcome millions of years of animal instinct
the young will instictivly push the boundaries and rules untill they run into a stop they cant or dont want to cross
It was bullyed at school and was the 3rd largest and strongest in my year plus had a good knowlage of self defence but most of mine was phsicological from most smaller kids etc and went on though the full 5 yrs secondary school the few times it got phyisical where i couldnt avoid it i never lost but then again i never won
mainly i was picked out cos i was more intelegent and had a broad general knowlege thanks to my parents though trouble is you cant beat up Big nerds
but you can take the Pi$$ day in day out for 5 yrsSchool was not the best years of my life but i dont think i suffered like lots do
My daughter when she goes to school will hopefully be reasonable and sensible Honest and moral but if theres no other choice make sure its the other guy/gal who dosnt get up
'Walk softly........but carry a big Stick'
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
My little boy was like that when he was 6, he now 7 and has grown out of it, in same way he has grown out of thumping other kids (4year old) eating worms (6months-2years) and breaking crockery ( 6months-3years). We did find did have keep reminding him that none of these behaviours were acceptable, He knows now that worms need cooking, and having plate to eat them off is good. But we didn't do 'well its phase and he will grow out of it' thing.
The african saying it takes a village to raise a child, refers to the level of differant skills that are required to be a parent, and to expect the entire task to be carried out successfully by one person is unrealistic. When Andrew (outdoorcode) showed my children how to skin a rabbit he was helping raise them. When wayland told a story that my son sat down still and listen to he was helping raise them. I not expecting them to babysit but what they have done is contribute to my children been of value to the world. That valuing is what is missing in modern britian and it damages a childs developement.