Dowsing for water

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Nagual

Native
Jun 5, 2007
1,963
0
Argyll
Oh come on.. I thought everyone knew it was the Water Elementals causing minute vibrations in the persons arms and hands ( since we are mostly water, they find this quite easy ) and these are designed to show us where water is.



The real question is why they do this?
 

Urban X

Nomad
Apr 6, 2012
272
0
Thanet, Kent
@charleslockerbie

Mine isn't a profession I'm an Urban Explorer and my subterranean world isn't really a fair example, in fact it can get outright bizarre. But even with a farmers cottage as a simple example and a stream at the end of 'chucklebutty' meadow, a pipe water or waste can deviate 'a lot', it could be for numerous reasons, the composition of the ground, roads/highways, trees, even rare plants could mean massive alterations in the obvious choice of route.

I've never dowsed, but I have seen it done and checked the rods used for tricks and such as I question almost everything, it's just in my nature, I've seen it work on more than one occasion, and accurate as anything, it's odd I don't pretend to know why or how it works, to me at least, it just does and I can find no reason why it should or shouldn't.

I think we all have abilities, developed or not that science has no answers for (yet at least), and science also constantly evolves, because what was scientific fact one day might not be the next as someone else discovers something else, science is often wrong, it's not infallible. :D

I've only got 3 constants in life, you are born, 'manure' will always happen (good or bad), and you will die. Everything else is open to interpretation. Meh, works for me. :D

@Toddy, loving the new Sig, LOL. :D


Si
 
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Baggy

Settler
Oct 22, 2009
573
0
Essex, UK
www.markbaigent.co.uk
Hiya

science also constantly evolves, because what was scientific fact one day might not be the next as someone else discovers something else,
Very true, I spent some time chatting to a quantum physicist a while back and I wonder if this branch of science will start to uncover how much that is unexplained does actually work.
 

Urban X

Nomad
Apr 6, 2012
272
0
Thanet, Kent
Hiya


Very true, I spent some time chatting to a quantum physicist a while back and I wonder if this branch of science will start to uncover how much that is unexplained does actually work.

Oh that stuff confuses the hell outta me, but it'll end up turning alot of todays' Scientific 'fact' on it's head I reckon. Look at plants, for instance, new species are discovered in the Amazonian jungle all the time, drug research is finding things in plants they don't even have names for.

If someone done an experiment on dowsing and it didn't give the results they were after for whatever reason, it doesn't work, and that's a fact, well it's not. Man if we all followed those rules we might all be sitting here discussing dowsing round the good ol camp fire but then we'd be heading back to the caves for a kip before chasing a few mammoths in the morning. :D


Si
 

woodspirits

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 24, 2009
4,223
918
West Midlands UK
www.facebook.com
hi charles,
apologies if i appeared to be a bit defensive, i felt i was getting cyber mugged! :)

in answer to your question, and i think i know where your going with this, definately not as with any new 'skill' it takes a lot of practice, and failures. if you will bear with me i will try to give you a little background info.

an old irish foreman taught me about 40 years ago, i was a young machine driver at the time. he said his father and grandfather had been well finders back home, like you and others here i didnt believe in it. i mean, how could it possibly work? well the upshot was we had to find an old water main to make a connection and he showed me how to dowse for it. i hopped back in the machine, dug down a mtr or so and there it was, a fluke? i thought so.
i was very sceptical but secretly practiced on sites thereafter for a year or two, gaining confidence, testing myself. gradually my self doubts subsided and i got to believe there was something in this dowsing malarky!

from then on it became easier, my failures lessened and after all the real proof was getting in the machine and verifying my 'find'. water is the starting block, something to do with our bodies being made up of 80/90 pc water?. my confidence grew as a direct result of my direct verifications, something most hobbyist dowsers dream of!

i quickly went on to identify and find all the other utilities and over time could differentiate between 4" 6" 9" and 12" pipes etc. yes i know you probably think im some sort of nutter,:D but i consider myself to be a sane and level headed bloke. i still test my abilities on a regular basis, i get about a 90pc success rate but professionals i know are spot on.

sorry to bang on here, just trying to say i was like some of you very sceptical initially. but i carried on and overcame my doubts, i dont know how it works people have been asking the same questions for literally thousands of years, try it, no need to tell your mates! i went on to dowse and verify a lot more interesting stuff, nothing to do with construction and a bit off the wall, its ongoing.

im not a particularily clever man but sometimes you have to just accept what is.
 
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charleslockerbie

Full Member
Jul 9, 2006
347
0
38
Aberdeen
@ UX
It seems to me that you do not think that dowsing is unexplainable and i think thats the best way to be, Dowsing is yet completely explained, tho there are aspects like ideomotor movement that explain small parts of it. I believe that people will continue to chalange the previously unexplainable and that one day we may explain it.
 

horsevad

Tenderfoot
Oct 22, 2009
92
1
Denmark
There are weirder things than dowsing which are currently accepted as scientific facts...

I teach biology for a living. Before that I did sysadmin work (IT-field). I am scientifically trained, and would - years ago - ridicule people who thougt that dowsing was real.

Until I actually tried myself, and found out that it worked. This is acutally quite disturbing for a person like me, who normally approaches every new situation with rational and scientifically based reflectance.

Of course I am aware of the experiments which have not yet proven dowsing as a real phenomenon. There could be quite many explanations for these results. However, please remember that abscense of evidence is not evidence of abscense of evidence. This should be obvious to anybody with scientific traning.

The experiments made by Randi or others are therefore - at best - inconclusive. Even if they have found a strong statistically correlation against the dowsers in their experiments this cannot be taken as evidence of dowsing not beeing a real phenomenon. The only thing they have proved is whether the the self-proclaimed dowsers in the experiment actually are able to dowse.

The scientific method requires an hypothesis on which the experiment are based. Randi's experiments has no underlying hypothesis, which means that there are no hypothesis to falsify. Whitout an underlying hypothesis the double blind tests are useless.

In my spare time I have done a bit of private research on the subject. On my piece of land I have several spots where the dowsing rods are fluctuating quite wildly. On the same spots I have measured a ground-level difference in voltage potential of 40 volts DC. If I place a thin metal plate in the air over the same spot I can measure a difference in voltage potential of 0,5 volt between the two sides.

I am quitely assuming that the reason behind this are in some way connected to telluric currents, and maybe even the Schumann resonance. It could be quite interesting to investigate whether water moving underground could result in a local variation in either the telluric current or Schumann resonance, as this could be a starting point for further research.

- - -

Some 20 years ago, while I was a young teenager, I saw a very bright meteor. The weird thing was that I heard a low whisteling noise simultaneously with seeing the meteor. I was told that the sound must have been a result of imagination, as sound and light has to very different propagation velocities. I found it very difficult to accept this explanation, as I already then felt quite capable in distinguishing between reality and imagination.

Some years later I stumbled upon a research paper by Colin Keay, in which he suggested that such sound could be electrophonical in nature. Electrophonical sounds are made by radio waves with extremely long wavelengt. The radio waves actually produces audio waves in the observers vincinity by interacting with ground-level objects such as trees, leaves, clothing or even spectacles.

To the best of my knowledge I was, at that time, the first person in Denmark to actually construct a radio reciever which can detect these radio waves. Professional researchers with vastly better equipment have nowadays proven then existence of such electrophonical sounds without doubt. Some are even relating these findings the observations of anormal animal behavior just before earthquakes.

Science is not, and should not be, static. By the means of the scientific method mankind have made enourmous advances in knowledge; but we do not understand everything. Currently even Newtons old laws of gravity are beeing re-examined, as some of the Pioneer and Voyager probes are expiriencing a drag which cannot be explained by the means of normal understanding of gravity. Yet weirder are the consequenses of the Bohm experiment, by which we may have to abandon the principle of locality.

//Kim Horsevad
 

Urban X

Nomad
Apr 6, 2012
272
0
Thanet, Kent
An interesting read Kim, I'm glad that you have gotten past the science saying no and actually tried it yourself, I think we should always question and see for ourselves rather than rely on someone elses opinion, carved in scientific stone or not. :D

Interesting about the electrophonical sounds too.

I'm also a SysAdmin/IT tech type dude but although I work with technology on a daily basis I'm still open to things I can't work out or explain. :D


Si
 

charleslockerbie

Full Member
Jul 9, 2006
347
0
38
Aberdeen
@woodspirits im very sorry you felt cyber mugged, it was not my intention. I do not doubt your results, you do sound to be a sane and level headed person. What i doubt is the cause of the results.

All the evedence i have found is that the sticks are not doing the work, and that leaves the human being behind them. I do not believe you are lieing to me about your experances, so i believe the answer may lie in the subconsious mind.

When i was a kid i was encouraged to do a bit of dowsing by a family friend and i did for about a day. I never had the opertunity to verify anything, maybe if i had i would have a diferent opinion(one way or the other).
 

woodspirits

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 24, 2009
4,223
918
West Midlands UK
www.facebook.com
alls cool, re sticks that is my perception too i am practicing without anything and getting decent results albeit a bit haphazard sometimes, its all about recognizing the new 'guidlines' heat, tingling, cold, pressure and so on but im getting there. i believe theres something very primeval about all this which is perhaps why its difficult to understand logically.

maybe you should give your dowsing another chance? :)
 

palace

Forager
Mar 4, 2011
228
1
NW London England
There are weirder things than dowsing which are currently accepted as scientific facts...

remember that abscense of evidence is not evidence of abscense of evidence. This should be obvious to anybody with scientific traning.

The experiments made by Randi or others are therefore - at best - inconclusive. Even if they have found a strong statistically correlation against the dowsers in their experiments this cannot be taken as evidence of dowsing not beeing a real phenomenon. The only thing they have proved is whether the the self-proclaimed dowsers in the experiment actually are able to dowse.

The scientific method requires an hypothesis on which the experiment are based. Randi's experiments has no underlying hypothesis, which means that there are no hypothesis to falsify. Whitout an underlying hypothesis the double blind tests are useless.

In my spare time I have done a bit of private research on the subject. On my piece of land I have several spots where the dowsing rods are fluctuating quite wildly. On the same spots I have measured a ground-level difference in voltage potential of 40 volts DC. If I place a thin metal plate in the air over the same spot I can measure a difference in voltage potential of 0,5 volt between the two sides.

I am quitely assuming that the reason behind this are in some way connected to telluric currents, and maybe even the Schumann resonance. It could be quite interesting to investigate whether water moving underground could result in a local variation in either the telluric current or Schumann resonance, as this could be a starting point for further research.

- - -

Some 20 years ago, while I was a young teenager, I saw a very bright meteor. The weird thing was that I heard a low whisteling noise simultaneously with seeing the meteor. I was told that the sound must have been a result of imagination, as sound and light has to very different propagation velocities. I found it very difficult to accept this explanation, as I already then felt quite capable in distinguishing between reality and imagination.

Some years later I stumbled upon a research paper by Colin Keay, in which he suggested that such sound could be electrophonical in nature. Electrophonical sounds are made by radio waves with extremely long wavelengt. The radio waves actually produces audio waves in the observers vincinity by interacting with ground-level objects such as trees, leaves, clothing or even spectacles.

To the best of my knowledge I was, at that time, the first person in Denmark to actually construct a radio reciever which can detect these radio waves. Professional researchers with vastly better equipment have nowadays proven then existence of such electrophonical sounds without doubt. Some are even relating these findings the observations of anormal animal behavior just before earthquakes.

Science is not, and should not be, static. By the means of the scientific method mankind have made enourmous advances in knowledge; but we do not understand everything. Currently even Newtons old laws of gravity are beeing re-examined, as some of the Pioneer and Voyager probes are expiriencing a drag which cannot be explained by the means of normal understanding of gravity. Yet weirder are the consequenses of the Bohm experiment, by which we may have to abandon the principle of locality.

//Kim Horsevad

If these long radio wave lengths are similar to the very low frequency long range radar the Russians used to look over the horizon in the late 60s which required their own power station, I remember people in Scotland getting head aches because of it; if that is the case could some people be susceptible to the radio waves or infra sound (low frequency less than 2 cycles per second) produced in nature...
 
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charleslockerbie

Full Member
Jul 9, 2006
347
0
38
Aberdeen
How did i know that was going to be sujested?
I may give dowsing another chance should i get the opertunity to test my results in as fair a manor as i can achieve, im deffenetly not allowed to dig up my own garden, and know where a lot of the pipes/wires are already.
 

horsevad

Tenderfoot
Oct 22, 2009
92
1
Denmark
If these long radio wave lengths are similar to the very low frequency long range radar the Russians used to look over the horizon in the late 60s which required their own power station, I remember people in Scotland getting head aches because of it; if that is the case could some people be susceptible to the radio waves or infra sound (low frequency less than 2 cycles per second) produced in nature...

There is, indeed, a strong correlation between some types of radio waves and health issues for both animals and humans, but this is quite off-topic in respect to the topic being discussed. I only mentioned the experience with the meteor as a comparison to the dowsing phenomenon.

//Kim Horsevad
 

Harvestman

Bushcrafter through and through
May 11, 2007
8,656
26
55
Pontypool, Wales, Uk
Toddy.

Ok, I took that one personally, and I shouldn't have. My apologies.

And no, you don't always offend me. Rather the contrary actually, on the whole. This one just happens to touch a nerve. I'm not against an open mind, just irrational thought.

Oh, and I have tried dowsing, actually. My scepticism is based on personal experience as well as logical thought. Logical thought tells me it shouldn't work. Experience reinforces that by showing me that it doesn't work. And before anyone says it I tested dowsing during a period of my life when I was a great deal less sceptical than I am now. I really wanted it to work.

Ok, so it has been claimed that dowsing works. Let's proceed on the basis of looking for an explanation of how it might work.

Pieces of bent metal
In order to 'detect' anything, you need to have some sort of sensory system. Metal is just metal. No sense organs or strucutres of any sort. It doesn't matter what shape you bend it into, it can't detect anything. Certain metals will respond to magnetic fields, but it would have to be an enormously powerful one to get a noticeable reaction. Water isn't capable of doing that. Finally, even if somehow, by means unknown, the bits of metal could detect the water, there is no mechanism by which they are capable of sudden and spontaneous movement, other than by gravity.
Ergo: bits of metal cannot detect water

The hazel twig.
This has been cut from a living thing. Therefore it is dead. Any sensory structures it might have are now also dead. However, plants are known to be resilient, so lets say we have a freshly cut bit of hazel in which the tissues are arguably still alive. Ok. Now, most of a bit of wood like this is made of lignified cells (wood, to a layman). Lignified cells are dead, even in a living plant. The living cells are in a layer just beneath the bark, but in a branch or trunk these cells are concerned almost exclusively with the transport of fluids within the plant. They are not equipped for detecting anything external to the plant. Granted, there are pores, but these are for transpiration (regulating the rate of water loss, and some limited gas exchange) and have no sensory capacity. Finally, the living cells are, except for the pores, covered with a layer of bark, which is made of dead cells. There is no way that the hazel twig, even if nominally alive, can detect water. Finally, just like the metal, it isn't capable of sudden and spontaneous movement either.
Ergo: the hazel twig (or any other wood) is incapable of detecting water.

What does that leave?

Well, on the end of the bit of metal or hazel twig is a human being. Alive, and equipped with a full array of functioning sensory apparatus for the purpose of detecting and analyzing the world around it. Humans have the capacity to detect changes in temperature and humidity, and to perceive differences in soil type or the distribution of plants, all of which may, consciously or sub-consciously indicate the presence of water to the human. Furthermore, a human being has a muscular system enabling it to produce sudden mechanical responses to stimuli received. Now we are at least taking about something possible.

Since I mentioned subconscious perception, let me clarify. It has been well established through monitoring of brain activity that the human brain is capable of responding to stimuli well below the threshold of conscious perception. For example, if I find the quietest sound that a person can hear, and make it a little bit quieter, the person can no longer consciously hear that sound. If I then make that inaudible sound 100 times quieter again, the auditory centre of the brain will still produce a response to that sound, even though the conscious brain is not aware of it.

So, I'm still a dowsing sceptic, but if I wanted to know how it worked, I would investigate the person, not the paraphenalia.

All the best,

Mike
 

palace

Forager
Mar 4, 2011
228
1
NW London England
There is, indeed, a strong correlation between some types of radio waves and health issues for both animals and humans, but this is quite off-topic in respect to the topic being discussed. I only mentioned the experience with the meteor as a comparison to the dowsing phenomenon.

//Kim Horsevad

I had no intent to go off topic my inference was that some people may be susceptible to feeling or reacting to phenomena either unknown or poorly understood (ball Lightning) I remain on the fence...
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,999
4,652
S. Lanarkshire
@Harvestman

Sounds eminently rational to me :)

My next immediate thought though is, "Oh no!", because since I know it does work (better than average odds) for me, that makes *me* the devil in the detail of the whole process :sigh: and if that's so then we'll never suss it out properly, since we're all unique, and maybe the old dowsers are right and some folk will never manage to do it :dunno:

No wonder Randi had problems :rolleyes:

cheers,
Toddy
 

woodspirits

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 24, 2009
4,223
918
West Midlands UK
www.facebook.com
harvestman,

good analysis and more or less the conclusion i came to. the instrument method used is merely amplifying a physical reaction, but still usefull as an indicator. then how is it possible to 'fine tune' or differentiate your given target?

charles, theres no need to dig up your garden a usefull and common exersize is to place objects on the ground in a line about 2mtrs apart water, wood metal plastic etc and think of just one object. with practice you will be able to get a result as you walk forward it will pass the others untill you reach your choice. once you get the hang of that do the same with coins of different denominations, just a bit of fun, but you may be surprised :)
 

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