Down or Synthetic

[Sub5mango]

I am looking at buying a new sleeping bag for the winter. I'll be sleeping on a thermarest venture mat with a macpac cocoon bivi under a basha. I've read about down being affected by damp yet it is so much lighter and smaller than synthetic. Is the damp really that much of a concern for down bags?

 

[sunndog]

Never been that much of a concern for me buddy

It's not like synthetic bags get warmer when they're wet lol

 

[C_Claycomb]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

That is a good deal of info.

It seems that the people who are most critical of down are:
1. Long distance through hikers who are using their bags for months on end, where keeping down aired and clean can be difficult. (Ray Jardine would be an example)
2. Mountain hunters who can be out for a week or more and can get back to camp late in the day, wet through and can benefit from a bag that they can climb into with damp clothing.
3. Folk with military backgrounds whose needs combine 1&2.

I have a couple of down bags, and a down quilt and have used them in all seasons, but not in a bivi under a basha for more than a night or two at a time. I have never had a problem with my bags getting wet, but I always have them inside a roll top dry bag, I have a change of clothes to wear at night, also in a/the dry bag and I use a bag liner to help keep the bag clean. None of my down (as far as I know) is hydrophobic treated.

If weight and wet are a concern for where you are going/what you are doing, have you considered a synthetic quilt? That is what the Jardines went with eventually.

ATB

Chris

 

[BigMonster]

2 cents from me.
If you decide to buy down buy the expensive stuff. 650 fill is really average, top synthetic equals or even beats cheap down.
I switched back to synthetic as it have more "substance", lofts much faster than down and it's less prone to cold spots when you press your knee against tent wall. And it doesn't take as much time to warm up.
Don't worry about "down is crap when wet" arguments, down is actually very hydrophobic and it takes a lot of soaking to kill the loft. Hygiene on the other hand...

In short modern top shelf synthetic bags are cheaper, easier to maintain, more hassle free and only marginally heavier. Only buy down if you have to save every gram and are willing to pay the money and maintenance penalty. Also the weight penalty of synthetic bag is negligible in temps above 0 C so down makes sense manly in winter sleeping bags.

 

[Janne]

Down insulates better per gram, but synthetics keep the fluffiness/volume better.

Unless you plan to hike in the Sub Arctic or Arctic wintertime, I would say synthetic is better for for you.
Carinthia make superb ones.

 

[woodsorrel]

I am trying to decide whether to switch from a synthetic to down bag. I am looking at a high-end down bag. And the 20-degree(F) bag is a full pound lighter than my synthetic bag, rated for the same temperature. A pound is not a trivial amount of weight. But the cost difference is not trivial either...

- Woodsorrel

 

[C_Claycomb]

Who makes a premium synthetic bag? I know that Kifaru makes good ones, using Climashield Apex, but they are not readily available. Who else?

It seems to me that if the maker doesn't specify the insulation used (and the insulation be one of a small handful of types), it may not be a premium product. I had a Snugpack Softie 10 for winter use that took more space and weighed more than my down bag, but wasn't as warm or as resistant to damp! It wasn't a cheap synthetic, but a long way from premium.

 

[sunndog]

Who makes a premium synthetic bag? I know that Kifaru makes good ones, using Climashield Apex, but they are not readily available. Who else?

It seems to me that if the maker doesn't specify the insulation used (and the insulation be one of a small handful of types), it may not be a premium product. I had a Snugpack Softie 10 for winter use that took more space and weighed more than my down bag, but wasn't as warm or as resistant to damp! It wasn't a cheap synthetic, but a long way from premium.

What's that brand that everyone gets all Stepford wives about?
Woodies or something.
You see videos of folks purposely wetting them through and sleeping in them like it's some kind of magic

 

[C_Claycomb]

Wiggy's?

 

[sunndog]

That's it!
Think they are the highest end synthetic bags I can think of other than the general manufacturers synthetic lines

 

[C_Claycomb]

They weigh a ton, use heavy, older insulation, and heavy shell fabric. Durability at the cost of weight. They probably maintain their warmth for longer, more wash/dry cycles than lighter synthetic bags, if that is a deciding factor.

 

[Billy-o]

You can get bags which are both down and synthetic. It is an answer I guess you might have been expecting to come along at some point.

I have a couple of down jackets which are down mainly but are artificial at the cuffs and shoulders to deal wit the wet. It works.

The bags I have seen are down on the top layer, artificial on the bottom. I have never tried one, but have assumed that part of the idea is that if the down wets out, you can flip the bag; since, if you are on a decent insulated mat, even on ice, you mainly lose heat through the top layer. It'll be a bit lighter anyway

You see them quite often in shops here, as it so wet. Not sure how many takers there are though

 

[Janne]

No, it has to do with the compressability.
I had a bag system years ago, a double bag system.
Summer bag synthetic, and the second/inner bag was down.

Inner bag could be used inbetween.

Managed to burn a huge hole, so ended up in a landfill....

 

[Sub5mango]

Wow, thanks for all the great feedback everyone

 

[Broch]

To be honest, just saying 'use in winter' doesn't really define your requirement. Do you mean -5, -10, -15 - lowland, highland, UK, Scandinavia, Arctic?

For lowland UK where temperatures rarely get below -5 a simple layer system works fine. I have actually just reduced the size and weight of my sleeping system by going for a bag with less loft because when it's winter I use my bivvi bag (adds half a season) and get in with more clothes on anyway (adds another half season). I found myself constantly unzipping my bag and throwing it off because I was too warm so I got a lighter bag!

If I was planning a night out at -20 on the Cairngorms in February I would take something different

 

[Robson Valley]

Long ago, I bought a sleeping bag which was half-and-half.
The bottom half is Hollofill (how old is that?) and the top half is down.
Hood, down tube behind the zipper and a barrel design (very wide in the middle).
Tent camping out of the truck, all I needed was a single fuzzy extra blanket and I was always comfortable.

 

[Sub5mango]

To be honest, just saying 'use in winter' doesn't really define your requirement. Do you mean -5, -10, -15 - lowland, highland, UK, Scandinavia, Arctic?

For lowland UK where temperatures rarely get below -5 a simple layer system works fine. I have actually just reduced the size and weight of my sleeping system by going for a bag with less loft because when it's winter I use my bivvi bag (adds half a season) and get in with more clothes on anyway (adds another half season). I found myself constantly unzipping my bag and throwing it off because I was too warm so I got a lighter bag!

If I was planning a night out at -20 on the Cairngorms in February I would take something different

Thanks Broch. It is indeed for lowland England. What layer system do you suggest? I do currently have one very old mountain equipment down bag I've used in autumn, plus a cheap trespass mummy two season synthetic bag, and another 1 season indoor sleeping bag. I've never tried any combos of them or whether any combo would fit inside my bivi. My concern with a layer system is the extra bulk / weight over having a single bag... or maybe I'm looking at this wrong?

 

[Erbswurst]

Have a look at Snugpak Special Forces 1, Special Forces 2, the Adapter and complete System, and the very very light Snugpak Special Forces Bivvy Bag.

The green is cheaper than the Camouflage version.

They are made in Britain with a swiss plastik filling and they are outstanding good.

Down bags are nice in hot and dry circumstances and cold and dry circumstances, especially if you are out relatively short.

Whet weather and long trips?

Take the Snugpak Special Forces system!

I use it 150 days a year and I am very convinced about it.

But yes, Carinthia seems to be very good too. They are made in Austria.
The system Tropen /Defence4 with bivvy bag is stronger and heavier, the bivvy bag is better and longer lasting but very very expensive and heavy.

But the Snugpak system is more modern and better thought through. It has a warmth collar in the SF2, the Tropen/Def 4 system doesn't have it.

 

[Sub5mango]

Have a look at Snugpak Special Forces 1, Special Forces 2, the Adapter and complete System, and the very very light Snugpak Special Forces Bivvy Bag.

The green is cheaper than the Camouflage version.

They are made in Britain with a swiss plastik filling and they are outstanding good.

Down bags are nice in hot and dry circumstances and cold and dry circumstances, especially if you are out relatively short.

Whet weather and long trips?

Take the Snugpak Special Forces system!

I use it 150 days a year and I am very convinced about it.

But yes, Carinthia seems to be very good too. They are made in Austria.
The system Tropen /Defence4 with bivvy bag is stronger and heavier, the bivvy bag is better and longer lasting but very very expensive and heavy.

But the Snugpak system is more modern and better thought through. It has a warmth collar in the SF2, the Tropen/Def 4 system doesn't have it.

Thanks E. I just checked out the system and it looks good but I think it might be overkill for my needs, so I've done a quick comparison of the special forces 2 bag to other snugpak and dd jura warmth, weight, packed size). Do you know anything about the other snugpak bags?

Tactical 4 2.1kg -12c/-17c 25x24cm £175
Elite 4 1.95kg -10c/-15c 28x24cm £110

Tactical 3 1.7kg -7c/-12c 23x20cm £155
Special Forces 2 1.8kg -7c/-12c 23x23cm £164

Dd jura £59 1.7kg 26x22cm -5

 

[sunndog]

Thanks Broch. It is indeed for lowland England. What layer system do you suggest? I do currently have one very old mountain equipment down bag I've used in autumn, plus a cheap trespass mummy two season synthetic bag, and another 1 season indoor sleeping bag. I've never tried any combos of them or whether any combo would fit inside my bivi. My concern with a layer system is the extra bulk / weight over having a single bag... or maybe I'm looking at this wrong?

How low does your old ME bag go down to?
You might get away with something like a Costco down throw or a thin bag liner.

I'd be tempted to buy a very light summer down bag to reduce your weight all year then add the old ME bag when it's cold