Depending upon modern technology

[Nemisis]

Excellent piece Wayland I agree that it all boils down to knowledge and awareness rather than a learned dependance on gadgets. While they have there uses they can take something away from the whole experience of enjoying the outdoors. I believe its all a matter of finding a balance that suits each of us as individuals
Dave

 

[Stuart]

A good post Chris, one deserved of a reputation point!

many people seem to get caught up in this idea that in the quest to become the ultimate outdoorsman, their aim should be to abandon all modern technology and wander the hills clad in buckskin and carrying only a flint knife or alternatively others feel they should quest to obtain the shiniest and most shop clerk recommended equipment, striving to keep in line with fashions using only the latest and most expensive gear

I feel that this is missing the point somewhat, the aim should be to blend the technology available to you with the skills to go without, you should endeavour to learn how to make and use buckskin and flint whilst continuing to wear modern fabrics such as ventile/gortex etc and use a steel knife.

One does not replace the other, technology should not replace knowledge/skill and likewise knowledge/skill should not replace modern technology, rather the two should be blended together to make the best of both worlds

As an example let’s take 3 hypothetical individuals and place them in deep the beacons beacons..... In winter...... with a blizzard fast approaching.


Mr 1 is a highly skilled bushman and a master of his art, he has shunned modern equipment using only what he can produce himself from what he can gather. he is clad in furs and skins walking in mocs, from his woven cordage belt hangs a beautifully crafted flint knife and across his back an expertly crafted birch bark container is suspended which contains his well practiced hand-drill set.

Mr 2 has all the gear and no idea, he is swathed from head to toe in the most expensive space age fabrics known to man and festooned with electronic gadgets which sooth him into a sense of security with there combined humming and gentle back lit glow. He is indeed the most respected man by shop assistance nation wide.

Mr 3 is not as visually impressive as either of the above characters, he would go unnoticed by most, his equipment is modest consisting of only that which is personally tried and trusted, which show wear from use and experience.
but Most importantly, for every piece of equipment he carries in his hand, he carries the knowledge in his head to go without. Carrying the same knowledge in his head as Mr 1 and in his hands are some of the equipment used by Mr 2.


The blizzard closes in......... And rages for days


Who do you think would cope best... Mr 1, Mr 2 or Mr 3?

The chances are high that Mr 1 might not make it, whilst his knowledge and skill are without reproach the blizzard may prove too much and he may freeze to death, succumbing to the harshness of the elements in exactly the same way as countless numbers of his stone age ancestors did and not though lack of knowledge, but unlike his stone age ancestors he was ill equipped by choice.

Mr 2 would almost defiantly have to be rescued and providing his technology doesn’t fail him, he may get away with nothing more that a bruised ego.
but only if the technology on which he is reliant holds up, if his mobile phone batteries do not die in the cold, if he can get a signal, if the helicopter can fly in the storm, if the search and rescue can find him, if they can find him whilst he is still alive of course.
Still those dayglow colours will certainly make finding the body easier.

Mr 3's chances are good he has the knowledge to make not only the correct choices but also make the best use of his equipment, when things get tough and some of his carefully chosen items fail he will get by without them, and should the conditions get too much for his skill and knowledge that mobile phone and GPS may well see him home.

 

[Graywolf]

Even when the first human realised that a peice of flint created a spark,that was technology.I never thought I would be interested in "primitive ways" but I want a steel and flint, I think that its all about perception or what your comfortable with I much prefer a open fire to a cooker,but I definitely prefer a hammock/tarp to a debris shelter or tent.
Clayton

 

[pierre girard]

If you really want to see where technology is replacing skill, you only have to look at hunting in the US. When we talk about technology in the field of camping its hard to stretch much further than mobile phones, GPS, water filters and ever improved boots, clothes, tents and packs. In the US you can't walk into a Walmart, or pick up a copy of Field and Stream, without seeing examples of massive commercially driven technology being offered as a substitute for skills. Two way radios, laser range finders, scent supressing charcoal impregnated clothing, IR game finders and cameras, sprays to make blood trails glow, pop-up tent hides, MP3 game calls, electrically actuated decoys, pheremone attractor scents, bottled cover scents and little bottles of powder to tell you which way the wind is blowing!


In the modern world, how possible is it to be truely expert in wilderness skills, and not sacrifice your modern life?

How many areas of expertise do you juggle with your bushcraft? Sorry if this is

RE: Hunting

I first started hunting with a flintlock about 20 years ago as more and more city bred high tech hunters showed up in our area. After several close calls with hunters who would shoot at anything that moved (we had one hunter we knew shoot a dog, a cow, and a bear - thinking each was a deer). When a seperate season was set up for primitive firearms, I began to hunt that season - as there were far fewer hunters out at that time of year. Hunting with a flintlock forced me to become a much better hunter.

Alack and alas, technology is fast overtaking the muzzleloader season. Hunters who relied on technology rather than skill complained that hunting in this manner was just too hard. Technology responded and "Inline" muzzeloaders have now advanced to the point that any idiot can make them work, and last year the state changed the law to allow scopes on muzzleloaders. The solitude I used to enjoy during muzzleloader season is disappearing.

As to keeping woods skills while making a living in a technologically advanced work place - one thing I've noticed - since I no longer work outdoors all the time - my sense of the the weather has greatly diminished. When I worked outdoors all the time, and my wellbeing, or in the case of commercial fishing, even my life, depended on the weather - my weather sense was much greater than it is now, where bad weather is merely inconvenient, or even a non issue.

PG

 

[HoosierJed]

Chris threw out a question, "How much is it possible to know?" This is my feeble attempt to answer that question. Before I do, I gotta say that I agree with a lot of posts made here.

"Bushcraft" describes the activity of how to make use of natural materials found locally in any area. It includes many of the skills used by primitive man, and to these are added modern skills necessary for living in the bush, such as time and direction, and the provision of modern comforts. The practice of bushcraft develops in an individual a remarkable ability to adapt quickly to a changing environment.

The practice of bushcraft shows many unexpected results. The five senses are sharpened, and consequently the joy of being alive is greater.

The individual's ability to adapt and improvise is developed to a remarkable degree. This in turn leads to increased self-confidence.

Self-confidence, and the ability to adapt to a changing environment and to overcome difficulties, is followed by a rapid improvement in the individual's daily work. This in turn leads to advancement and promotion.

Bushcraft, by developing adaptability, provides a broadening influence, a necessary counter to offset the narrowing influence of modern specialization.

HoosierJed

 

[British Red]

I think one of the most important things here is not to judge other civilisations by our own standards. Remember that the purpose of navigation (for example) is to find a fixed point. Many nomadics couldn't care lest about being back at the car, at work on Monday etc. They adapt to their environment and conditions. Where a modern guy feels the need to navigate back to the car in the blizzard, others would simply shrug, realise that there was no hunting to be done and stay in their shelter. There is no deadline and smaller time horizons. Observing the here and now is more important than planning for a notional future. Looking for tracks is more important than being home in time for bed etc.

I know this is off topic, but consider it....

Slavery is morally wrong ?

Okay, you live in a bronze age culture...there is no army, police or prison service. Your tribe has been raided by another tribe and a member of the (defeated) attacking tribe was knocked unconscious. What would you do with them?

1) Let them go (to attack you again)
2) Kill (murder / execute) them?
3) Disarm them and feed them through your own efforts (one of you must watch them and another hunt / grow enough to feed themselves, the prisoner and the guard)?
4) Disarm them and make them work to help support your tribe?

Now if you support option 4, you can call it a "prisoner of war" if you like, but......

This was demonstrated to me as the principle that "civilisations can only have the morals they can afford to support".

The same is true of technology IMHO. A lot of our reliance on technology is caused by our need to be somehwere at sometime or to have something. Other civilisations simply thought (and think) differently

Red

 

[Great Pebble]

I think one of the most important things here is not to judge other civilisations by our own standards.

And equally, although it can be a tad difficult to get your head round....

Not judging our society by the standards of others.

 

[addyb]

Modern technology can be both good AND bad. Myself, it's only in the last year or so that I've actually started to get into bushcraft. Up until now, when I would go into the outdoors, I would climb. So my pack would weigh about 50 pounds, and my Dad's about 75 or 80 pounds. And we would carry gore-tex, polypro, polar fleece, down bags, ice-axes, crampons, 100 metre ropes, a rack of hardware, pitons, etc... At the end of the day, no matter how cold or tired we were, we both always had a nice warm sleeping bag and mountaineering tent to sleep in. We'd cook on MSR white-gas stoves and go out for a week, or sometimes even ten days.

But then I started think the opposite way. Do I really NEED all of those things in the outdoors? Depending on the situation, no I don't need everything but the kitchen sink. I joined these forums by chance in September when my second year of university started up. I bought my first fixed blade knife today, a Frosts Clipper. On Saturday I worked on learning how to make fire with a bow-drill. I bought a wool sweater and stopped wearing my bulky Salomon mountaineering boots.

Because, for hundreds if not thousands of years, our ancestors were comfortable in the bush with a lot less. They might've only carried a thick sweater, a good, durable knife, and a basha for shelter. And they might've made fire with flint and steel, or a bow-drill.

When I think of bushcraft, I think of survival. I want to be able to go out into the bush with just the clothes on my back and be able to live off the land and not have to worry about humping 50 pounds on my back for ten days. I'm finding it to be extremely difficult, but the more I learn, the more I fall in love with it. I climbed for sport, but now I learn bushcraft as a way of existance. It sounds a little corny, but it keeps me happy. Our ancestors did it, and so can we. Because if our world loses touch with that old-world way of living, then it will be eternally forgotten. And I don't want that to happen.

Adam

 

[pierre girard]

... for hundreds if not thousands of years, our ancestors were comfortable in the bush with a lot less. They might've only carried a thick sweater, a good, durable knife, and a basha for shelter. And they might've made fire with flint and steel, or a bow-drill.
Adam

Brought to mind a show I saw, some time back, on the "iceman" found in the
Alps and the items he was carrying. I couldn't name the items right off, as the show was some time ago, but it seemed like everything a man would need for survival (at least everything he would need if he didn't have an arrow sticking out of his back). Anyone know just what this fella was carrying?

PG

 

[HoosierJed]

Why did this post jump from Bushcraft Chatter to here in Kit Chatter? Just wondering out loud! Thought maybe it got deleted!

HoosierJed

 

[RovingArcher]

Brought to mind a show I saw, some time back, on the "iceman" found in the
Alps and the items he was carrying. I couldn't name the items right off, as the show was some time ago, but it seemed like everything a man would need for survival (at least everything he would need if he didn't have an arrow sticking out of his back). Anyone know just what this fella was carrying?

PG

I know he carried a copper axe, which blew the heck out of the time theories of the copper age. A small knife. I think he carried a pack of some kind, quiver of arrows, an unfinished bow, a bowl or shell, flint, antler, some sort of vegetation, maybe some medicinal plants. It's been a long while since I've seen or read anything on him and the memory is getting thin.

 

[Ketchup]

for ötzi the iceman, try http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocator/featured/otzi.htm

I don't understand the thread move either

 

[Stuart]

Chris threw out a question, "How much is it possible to know?" This is my feeble attempt to answer that question. Before I do, I gotta say that I agree with a lot of posts made here.

"Bushcraft" describes the activity of how to make use of natural materials found locally in any area. It includes many of the skills used by primitive man, and to these are added modern skills necessary for living in the bush, such as time and direction, and the provision of modern comforts. The practice of bushcraft develops in an individual a remarkable ability to adapt quickly to a changing environment.

The practice of bushcraft shows many unexpected results. The five senses are sharpened, and consequently the joy of being alive is greater.

The individual's ability to adapt and improvise is developed to a remarkable degree. This in turn leads to increased self-confidence.

Self-confidence, and the ability to adapt to a changing environment and to overcome difficulties, is followed by a rapid improvement in the individual's daily work. This in turn leads to advancement and promotion.

Bushcraft, by developing adaptability, provides a broadening influence, a necessary counter to offset the narrowing influence of modern specialization.

HoosierJed

I see you own a copy of bushcraft by richard graves hoosier, as your entire post after the first two lines is a word for word a qoute from the introducton page of that book.

it is fine to qoute from other sources but it is important that you acknowledge the source and credit the original author.

 

[HoosierJed]

Stuart thanks for the reminder.

HoosierJed

 

[JimH]

Brought to mind a show I saw, some time back, on the "iceman" found in the
Alps and the items he was carrying. Anyone know just what this fella was carrying?

PG

A quick Google reveals:

Ötzi the Iceman's Equipment

a bow and arrows, with quiver

an axe

the wooden frame and cords of a backpack (pannier)

ibex bones

two birch-bark containers

knife with woven sheath

a belt pouch

tassel with stone bead

a medicine bag (with medicinal fungus)

other tools

HTH,

Jim.

 

[Wayland]

The latest thinking about the frame and cords is that it may have been a snowshoe.

I believe Jaqui Wood has made a plausible reconstruction.

 

[Minotaur]

Depends on what Mr "skins and possibles" has in his head. I know a few people who would have no trouble - but just a few. And as has been said before, being lost is a state of mind.

I have had a few chats with rescue people, and one of the most surprising things they say is a lot of the time people have or had the right stuff, but did not know how to use it. A lot of the time, they do not notice that things are going wrong, or make changes fast enough to survive.

Slavery is morally wrong ?

Actually, no it's not. If you came rapaging into my village under those curcumstances, slavery is my most moral choice. What else are you going to do with someone defenseless? It becomes morally wrong when you effect or judge those not guilty of the original act, or not guilty of any act against you in the first place.

This was demonstrated to me as the principle that "civilisations can only have the morals they can afford to support".

Civilisation does not have morals, it has a series of principals that all within it must follow. 300 years ago, people knew the slave trade was morally wrong, but carried on anyway. A moral can and often is against the flow. The saying 'Money is the root of all evil' goes against that, some of the most powerful empires, had the lowest morals. Look around today, money talks louder than anything else, even morals.

The same is true of technology IMHO. A lot of our reliance on technology is caused by our need to be somehwere at sometime or to have something. Other civilisations simply thought (and think) differently

I think technology is often used instead of knowledge, or more importantly we abdicate resposibility for ourselves to it or other people. We know how to farm without chemicals, we know how to get those results but we do not. It is like we go around destroying trees to get sap, when any good bushcrafter helps the tree heal so it is their next year. We live in a world were companies are sued because they serve hot coffee, but we will not charge fools for not having the required kit or knowledge to save themselves. You go up a hill with only a GPS, get lost and need saving, you should foot the bill for that rescue. Skiers have to pay so why do sailors and hikers got let off?

 

[HoosierJed]

The early bushcraft or backwoodsman skills are good to fall back on in case modern technology fails. I think once a year we should walk into and live in the wilderness for at least 7 days without taking anything in with us except the clothes on our back (I've heard some people going in naked!) in remembrace of our early wilderness ancestors. I've never tried going in naked...interesting thought, what material would my 1st set of clothes be made of...animal skins or plant fibers?

HoosierJed

 

[Nemisis]

Alone in the woods without my clipper? I would really feel naked then lol
Dave

 

[RovingArcher]

The early bushcraft or backwoodsman skills are good to fall back on in case modern technology fails. I think once a year we should walk into and live in the wilderness for at least 7 days without taking anything in with us except the clothes on our back (I've heard some people going in naked!) in remembrace of our early wilderness ancestors. I've never tried going in naked...interesting thought, what material would my 1st set of clothes be made of...animal skins or plant fibers?

HoosierJed

Your clothing would be made of both plant and animal, if you had no other choices. However, in this day and age, you are likely to find any number of materials left by previous visitors that can be made into protective clothing.

Even in our expanses of wilderness, I just can't bring myself to imagine what would be left after 300,000,000 people had their 7 days in the bush. Eventually it would be fairly difficult to find a place to step that wasn't already occupied by the waste of someone that was there before you.