December outing with the kids (Norway)

[Tor helge]

Some weeks ago a friend of mine and I decided to take the kids for a sunday outing in the woods.
It has been a while since we last were out with the kids. Though the days are short we managed to have a good time in the forrest burning hot dogs and drinking cocoa and coffee.

On the pic above my daughter is walking against our dectination Frosktjønna (Frog pond). Below all the kids are gathered around and in the pulk.

The pics below is our "campsite". I often carry a light free standing shelter (Quetcha T0 i think its branded) when out with the kids. Nice, easy way for them to get out of the wind.

One of the first things I did when we arrived was chopping a hole trough the ice for coffee water. The task was accomplished with and old Øyo scouts axe.

The troll king making coffe.

God Jul
Merry Christmas to all

Tor Helge

 

[Bushcraftsman]

Great pics! wish we had weather like that over here, also wish our lakes and rivers were clean enough to drink straight from oh well. Should of tried a spot of fishing whilst you were brewing up

Thanks for posting.

Merry Christmas to you too

 

[Barn Owl]

Nice pics Tor.

We have some snow in my area for a few days,hope it lasts.

Happy festivities to you and yours.

Tom.

 

[MartinK9]

Great pictures Tor, thanks for sharing

Merry Christmas to you too.

 

[Twodogs]

Nice one Tor , Happy Christmas ,
Twodogs

 

[johnboy]

That's the way in the outdoors with Kids great stuff and thanks for sharing..

 

[sandbender]

Great pictures!

I like that little kettle too

 

[welshwhit]

Very jealous!

Looks like a fantastic way to spend the day!

Drew

 

[the mole trapper]

Merry Christmas to you also, cant wait till my wife and myself are able to get back upto your beautiful country, that sort of thing in Scandinavia is thought to be a perfectly normal thing to do, if we did that in most parts of the uk someone would call the police and say there are arsenists and freaks upto no good.
Regards Jamie.

 

[susi]

Moletrapper...

I can only speak for Finland. Here we have the "Everyman's Rights" law which allows us to travel pretty much where we want in the forest, and stay one night pretty much anywhere also, as long as it isn't someone's garden! At the same time, there are parts of this law which specifically state that you cannot freely make a fire on someone else's land, unless it is an emergency. Nor can you take wood from someone's forest, etc.

I'm not having a poke at you (it's Christmas! ). But....there are sometimes people on this forum who think that the Nordic lands are some sort of "free for all" bushcrafters' wilderness paradise. It isn't. Yes there are more relaxed rules about being out and about, specifically access to privately-owned forests and waterways, but when you "are" out-and-about, there are still rules that need to be followed!

Merry Christmas!

 

[forestwalker]

Moletrapper...

I can only speak for Finland. Here we have the "Everyman's Rights" law which allows us to travel pretty much where we want in the forest, and stay one night pretty much anywhere also, as long as it isn't someone's garden! At the same time, there are parts of this law which specifically state that you cannot freely make a fire on someone else's land, unless it is an emergency. Nor can you take wood from someone's forest, etc.

In Sweden you may make a fire -- using dead wood you can pick easilly! -- unless there is a fire ban.

I'm not having a poke at you (it's Christmas! ). But....there are sometimes people on this forum who think that the Nordic lands are some sort of "free for all" bushcrafters' wilderness paradise. It isn't. Yes there are more relaxed rules about being out and about, specifically access to privately-owned forests and waterways, but when you "are" out-and-about, there are still rules that need to be followed!

I think the problem is that to us it is "our" privately owned land, where we live all the time. While compared to the UK or Holland is is pure wilderness. Just speaking for myself:

* I would not mind someone passing over, or camping overnight on my land (in agreement with the common access laws). Actually discreet camping for an extra day or two would not be the whole world either (not a right).

* It is okay to make a sensible campfire for cooking/heat (as per the law)

* Go ahead and take some minor craft materials (not allowed by law in most cases), where it makes no real damage to the land (a stick or two, a little spruce roots, but not strip the bark of a few birches or cut the burl of a tree, etc).

I would be a bit annoyed over things well outside "leave no trace" camping (left behind fire-rings can be ok), really angry at trash left behind, and talk to the police if whole trees were missing for no reason (a bit of a scale and context issues here; some poles sensibly cut for a winter tent are fine, a full size pine for just to play with the axe is not).

 

[Tor helge]

Moletrapper...

I can only speak for Finland. Here we have the "Everyman's Rights" law which allows us to travel pretty much where we want in the forest, and stay one night pretty much anywhere also, as long as it isn't someone's garden! At the same time, there are parts of this law which specifically state that you cannot freely make a fire on someone else's land, unless it is an emergency. Nor can you take wood from someone's forest, etc.

I'm not having a poke at you (it's Christmas! ). But....there are sometimes people on this forum who think that the Nordic lands are some sort of "free for all" bushcrafters' wilderness paradise. It isn't. Yes there are more relaxed rules about being out and about, specifically access to privately-owned forests and waterways, but when you "are" out-and-about, there are still rules that need to be followed!

Merry Christmas!

Looks like the law in Finland is somewhat stricter than our "allemannsrett".
We can camp 2 nights in the same spot (no limit in the mountains) and make fire "everywhere". It is however a general fire ban from 15. april to 15. september in the forrest. Most norwegians regard this as a guide rather than a law (and in reality it is), but you will be persecuted and fined for starting a forrest fire.

As Susi says you are not alowed to cut down live trees. But gathering of dry branches/twigs for the fire is alowed.

Hunting and fresh water fishing is the owners right and thus not free. Children under the age of 16 can fish freely in most lakes.
Fishing in the sea is free for all.

There are several treads on the forums about these matters already.


These rules could however be taken from us if we misuse the privileges (some places the local government has issued their own regulations).
The Femunden national park is under "surveillance" after people have left their garbage behind and felled a lot of trees.

Tor

 

[The Cumbrian]

Looks like you all had a great time Tor.

I can't wait to get home and take my eldest out. I just hope that there's some snow left though, as it doesn't seem to last very long these days. As an example of how mild the UK winters have been recently, he's six in February, and last winter was the first time that I'd been able to take him sledging, and I had to drive up into the fells for that.
Good idea with that shelter though; I've got one similar that's only ever been used at festivals.

All the best, Michael.

God Jul och Gott Nytt Ar

 

[susi]

God Morgen!

Interesting to compare the small differences in the rules. Here you can fish practically anywhere with a simple rod and line (no reel) and collect berries and mushrooms where you wish in the forests. But fires are frowned upon. However on the network of hiking trails, there are many prepared fire places, wood and axe are provided free of charge!

I think many forest owners would agree with forestwalker, a few twigs or sticks is fine, but stripping bark from birch trees or cutting trees down would get an angry response. Those events in Femundsmarka are shocking indeed

 

[Mikey P]

Come to Scotland!

Wild camping is legal (as long as you follow the 'leave little-to-no trace' ethic) as long as it's not on ploughed fields, peoples gardens and places like sports pitches!

It's basically similar to the 'Allemannsrett' but not quite as open.

I was thinking about this the other day and the origins of the trespass laws in the UK. It seems that any place with a lot of land and a smaller population (eg, Scotland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, etc) will happily support 'allemannsrett'-type laws.

However, somewhere with a lot of people and little land (Netherlands and England, for example), wild camping is strongly opposed.

Not sure the law will ever change in England as there are too many MPs and people in positions of power with vested interests in keeping people off their land!

Whilst I would never advocate others to commit illegal acts, I would imagine that a single night in an uninhabited area, following a 'leave little-or-no trace' ethic, with no open fires (possibly a Honey stove or the like, or just gas/liquid fuel stove) would do very little harm...

Unfortunately, a lot of the public in the UK cannot be trusted to be careful and look after the land. There has been a problem near Loch Lomond due to alcohol/BBQs/litter and wild camping (with the emphasis on 'wild'): this has led to a ban on overnight camping in a few popular areas. Yet again, the actions of a minority have ruined it for everyone else.

Might I suggest that those in Scandinavian countries value the land and 'allemannsrett' more than we do in the UK? Would I be correct in saying that this is a cultural issue?

 

[susi]

Would I be correct in saying that this is a cultural issue?

Now that's spooky you said that. I was just thinking about quoting part of your earlier text and saying, "I think it's a cultural issue"!

But perhaps it is not just "English" or "Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian" culture, it's perhaps town-dwellers/country dwellers culture too. Certainly some of the city people here don't have much clue about the countryside. In Helsinki some even joke that the outer ring road is the "wolf fence", beyond which is relatively unexplored and uncivilised.

Only speaking for my peers, but even if we come across a bin, e.g. at a kota in the forest, we still bring our waste home. Emptying the bins requires a quad-bike or ski-doo, and they disturb the peace. But you can still see birch trees at some fireplace areas that have had their bark removed to help light the fire, although these are usually in the more accessible areas, relatively close to car-parks. That probably tells you something about the ignorant types who would do that...

I remember once walking in the UK, and coming across a picnic table. Somebody had very recently used a single-use foil bbq on the table top, and it had nearly burnt through. At the time I thought, "some people just don't deserve the outdoors".

 

[addo]

Looks like a great trip Tor, Thanks for posting.

Its looking a little Nordic here at the moment, Im going to try and escape the xmas madness on xmas eve to go for a walk in the snow and spend some time out in the local countryside without the masses for a change.

 

[forestwalker]

G Those events in Femundsmarka are shocking indeed

When I talked to Preben Mortensen many years ago I got the impression that it is a matter of doing the big continental city -> backcountry Scandinavia transition and not realizing that one still is not "Samuel Herne in the North". IIRC he was considering a sign "Alles Bist Verboten" (if I recall my German correctly) after some germans cut down 5-6 full size pines in order to make rafts, on the spur of a moment and for no real reason.

 

[forestwalker]

Now that's spooky you said that. I was just thinking about quoting part of your earlier text and saying, "I think it's a cultural issue"!

But perhaps it is not just "English" or "Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian" culture, it's perhaps town-dwellers/country dwellers culture too. Certainly some of the city people here don't have much clue about the countryside. In Helsinki some even joke that the outer ring road is the "wolf fence", beyond which is relatively unexplored and uncivilised.

I think so too. The 100% urbanized people can't really relate to the "unspoiled nature" meme, and thus can't properly behave in that environment.

I remember once walking in the UK, and coming across a picnic table. Somebody had very recently used a single-use foil bbq on the table top, and it had nearly burnt through. At the time I thought, "some people just don't deserve the outdoors".

I've seen the same outside Uppsala; again city people, alcohol and outdoors.