Convex grind change possible?

[Chele]

You shouldn't have
What about using the Lansky system? Seems a better option than re-grinding it free hand ... (that is if you can use the system for re-grinding).

thank you putting this site in my groups links.......imho id forget a lansky system...i use a spyderco knife system..i find it works fast and great for all knives includeing serrated ones ...

chele

 

[Chele]

are you calling a convex edge grind a scandi grind? if not please exsplain what kind of edge it is..i am a damascus bladesmith and been at it since 1987..

many of us in the states call a convex grind a moran grind as bill used it alot and it is a very tough/strong adge....i find it works great on almost anything..from paper cutting to chopping wood....i have no use for hollow grinds as it leaves so little metal behind the edge..its a very weak spot too

chele
black dragon forge

You've started something now...



I've no problem with agreeing to disagree, however:

I NEVER baton a knife, regardless of grind. I've never had to and don't ever anticipate having to, despite years as a survival instructor (and knifemaker).

A carpenter or chef has next to nothing in common with an outdoorsman, although I agree that an outdoors knife has food preparation and some wood cutting high on its list of primary tasks. Most of my knife use is as a slicing tool.

Cutting tools vary the world over and even within the same country there can be startling variations.

I've spent a lot of time in Norway and Sweden, including showing and selling my knives, and what most people over here aren't aware of is that the vast majority of their Scandi ground knives go back to a maker at some stage to have the blade reground when the secondary bevel gets too steep to take a good edge.

Most Scandi ground knives over there are sharpened with a secondary bevel, which eventually ends up with an angle so unworkable the blade has to be completely reground to re-establish a semblance of it's original grind.

It's only over here that people almost obsessively sharpen Scandi ground blades at more or less the exact angle they are originally ground to.

I like Scandi knives. In fact, I like them so much that I make them, and I own and use several bought and traded with Norwegian makers when I've been showing over there, but I've yet to find any argument in favour of one grind being vastly superior to another. My own preference is for convex for a lot of reasons. It makes a tougher blade overall, disperses stresses more efficiently (more valuable on longer blades) and performs heavier cutting far more efficiently.

I also prefer it for personal reasons because I find it drop dead easy to look after.

As you say, my mileage is different, and so are we all

But at the end of the day, as I've often said, I'd be grateful for a piece of broken glass if the chips were down and I needed a cutting tool. We have the luxury of selection based on preference, and equipment to hand when needed. That is one of the fundamental differences between bushcraft and survival. The skills may have some crossover points, but the kit and situations don't.

It makes for interesting discussion though

 

[Shinken]

Yep i think we are all on the same wave length regarding grinds

Convex being the same as moran

Scandi being a single flat ground edge that starts further away from the spine than what we normally consider flat grind

 

[British Red]

Does this help?

Red

 

[Xunil]

are you calling a convex edge grind a scandi grind? if not please exsplain what kind of edge it is..i am a damascus bladesmith and been at it since 1987..

many of us in the states call a convex grind a moran grind as bill used it alot and it is a very tough/strong adge....i find it works great on almost anything..from paper cutting to chopping wood....i have no use for hollow grinds as it leaves so little metal behind the edge..its a very weak spot too

chele
black dragon forge

You may know a Scandi grind as a chisel grind Chele. A lot of my friends in the USA and Canada refer to it as that.

Typically it's flat ground on both sides of the blade, usually at a steep angle and around 8 - 12mm up from the edge itself. Put two chisels back to back and you'll get the idea. Imagine an American Tanto point with that grind going the length of the blade.

I think it's a vastly inferior edge to convex (Moran) for a working knife but it's fine on the typically small knives made and used in the Scandinavian countries.

As an aside, Mike Lamprey, Mick Wardell and I have all done a lot of edge geometry testing and we've discussed this very issue at length many, many times. We all agree that the toughest working knives any of us can make all feature convex ground blades. None of us grind our blades anywhere near as thick as the Fallkniven F1, but any other grind gives up the ghost far more easily than convex.

Mike Lamprey makes his folders with convex ground edges and they are truly superb.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't a right/wrong argument. I own and use several Scandi knives and I love them to bits. I certainly have nothing against them as using knives, within their limitations.

I'm always curious when this subject comes up though.

Try slicing very ripe tomatoes with your average Scandi and see what happens.

I don't accept that a bushcraft/outdoors knife has to be Scandi ground to be an effective carver.

And I don't accept that a good convex (Moran) ground blade makes a bad carver because of its convex grind.

If you can carve a decent spoon you should be able to do it with most any knife.

We're coming full circle to preference again, which drives so many things.

Most people have very limited exposure to good convex ground blades, which could be one reason why a lot of folks head for Scandi blades if the only convex they've ever seen or used was an F1. Good as they are that grind really is too thick.

I've said this before but if the day should ever dawn that Mr Mears has a 'go faster' Mark ll Woodlore made with a convex grind we'll hear the howls of dismay from many and see a whole raft of people ditching perfectly good using knives to follow his path.

It ain't what you use it's the way that you use it...

I'll try and get the modified F1 pictures done tomorrow - the weather's been lousy this last day or two

 

[Shinken]

I don't accept that a bushcraft/outdoors knife has to be Scandi ground to be an effective carver. And I don't accept that a good convex (Moran) ground blade makes a bad carver because of its convex grind..

I dont believe anyone said that, a convex blade can be a good carver.

I just feel that scandi's are better for carving. I find details much easier with scandi's and they slice well.

And for what i use my knife for scandi's are easilly strong enough. So i see no need trade off a knives superior woodworking ability for extra edge durability when the edge i have is already more than good enough.

When i say superior i dont mean vastly so, a car that goes 100 miles an hour has a superior top speed to a car that goes 90 miles an hour even though the speed difference is minimal

Again it's each persons choice as to which trade off's they prefere

My apologies for going on, im bored at work so i have time to say what i am thinking to the detriment of you all

 

[Shinken]

Oh and trust me Ray does use convex, flat ground, scandi, and hollow ground knives.

 

[Xunil]

A misunderstanding I think Shinken.

I'm not suggesting anyone made statements that convex is/was a good carver, or not as the case may be.

I was talking generally, not necessarily basing my comments on those already in this thread.

And I think we're both chewing at the same bone, just from different angles.

I've seen Ray use different knives both in person and on his many TV appearances. My point was to illustrate that many go for a Woodlore or clone thereof on the basis that it's brilliant because it's Ray's knife. It is a good knife - I won't and can't argue that point. It just doesn't suit everyone and not everyone will be able to use and look after it effectively.

I've found that many people find convex a lot easier to look after over the long term than Scandi. Not as many people (in my experience) are as comfortable sharpening a Scandi ground blade.

I've had stacks of Woodlore/clones in for regrinding. So has Alan Wood, and one or two other makers I could mention.

That's not necessarily the knife's fault of course, and bad sharpening does no blade any favours, regardless of geometry and grind type.

I'll continue to make and use Scandi knives (I also have Scandi knives by Kai Embrettson, Harald Sellevold, Leonart Martensson and several others) but it will take a very strong argument to shift me from having my feet firmly in the convex grind camp

 

[Shinken]

Still at work

but it will take a very strong argument to shift me from having my feet firmly in the convex grind camp

I dont intend to shift you away from the convex camp, just putting into words why i prefere scandi. I guess it may help people who are undecided. But the only way to choose is to try all grinds first ( i realise that everyone wont be able to do this)

And when i get my kiln i will make convex blades if people ask for them!

My favorite grinds for bushcrafting are as follows (most favorite to least)

Scandi grind
full flat grind
convex grind
Hollow
Chisel

I feel a poll coming on!

 

[mojofilter]

Just a thought, but if you do go ahead with putting a bevel on the Barkies or the F1, the edge pro might not be the best tool for the job, because if you think about it, it relies on repeatability of the position of the knife on the plate / rest for good results. A full convex blade is not going to sit firmly on the sharpening plate, it'll be like a rocking chair....

Perhaps a good freehand sharpener would be better doing it?

Xunil, I'd love to see the reprofiled F1 too.

Even Peter who owns fallkniven said the F1 has more metal then he'd choose for his own knife but pointed out you can take away but can't put it back on.

I suppose so, but its a daunting task with stones and wet'n'dry....

 

[Neil1]

Xunil, I'd love to see the reprofiled F1 too.



Have a look in my gallery, theres a picture of mine, complete with the new handle + sheath that Leon 1 made.

 

[Razorback-Knives]

One thing I've found with convex grinds is that if you want it for fine work, carving or slicing go with thinner stock such as 1/8" or 3/32" spine. It gives you the thinness at the edge plus the strength of the convex grind/edge.
Scott

 

[Xunil]

I've been very busy, so apologies for how long it took me to get to a couple of pix of the modded F1.

Here it is next to a standard F1 bare blade:

In this profile shot you can (just) see the line where the softer steel meets the hard central core layer. It's pretty obvious how much higher up the blade this is on my modded blade than on a standard F1.

This last one is a lousy shot of the two knife tips side by side. Mine (on the left) is much finer and its taper starts way further back than on the standard blade (on the right).

The tapered tang on mine goes right down to the central core. At the spine of the blade at the top of the grind mine is perhaps 1mm thinner overall.

It's still strong due to the laminated structure but obviously nowhere near as strong as an unmodded blade.

It's certainly far more effective in use though - dead easy to sharpen and more than fine enough for the delicate tasks as well as stout enough for heavier cutting.

Sorry to keep dragging this thread slightly off topic, but there we are. People asked to see and now you can.

 

[British Red]

That point certainly looks to be a vast improvement - now if you just ground that convexing out ....

Nice work fellah

Red

 

[Xunil]

That point certainly looks to be a vast improvement - now if you just ground that convexing out ....

LMAO

Agreeing to disagree about what we fail to agree on, in a good natured way of course.

As long as you agree...

 

[Shinken]

Looks like you have done a very nice job on that mate!