I always think its too easy to criticise people in these situations , at least the guy had the mind too dig a snow hole ///
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'Complacent' hillwalker rescued
- Thread starter Doc
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I bet he found it too much when the weather turned, made a nest and got out of the worst of it, and phoned the missus to say he'd be a wee bit late and not to fret...........and she promptly phone the police.
It's what I'd have done had HWMBLT phoned me and said he was waiting out the weather overnight on Ben Ledi.
It must have gotten pretty dreadful though that it took five hours for the mountain rescue team to climb up to his position.
It's not that high, it's a good path and not technically difficult. A good morning or afternoon walk usually.
He might have gone up not best prepared, but he took the right action when he realised how badly he was managing.
Better cooried down and safe in a known position than stumbling lost and frozen on the hill.
I also know that if it had been my husband that had had to be rescued, I'd have fundraised like fury for the team that brought him back down safely. Maybe this fellow's missus will too
cheers,
M
It's what I'd have done had HWMBLT phoned me and said he was waiting out the weather overnight on Ben Ledi.
It must have gotten pretty dreadful though that it took five hours for the mountain rescue team to climb up to his position.
It's not that high, it's a good path and not technically difficult. A good morning or afternoon walk usually.
He might have gone up not best prepared, but he took the right action when he realised how badly he was managing.
Better cooried down and safe in a known position than stumbling lost and frozen on the hill.
I also know that if it had been my husband that had had to be rescued, I'd have fundraised like fury for the team that brought him back down safely. Maybe this fellow's missus will too
cheers,
M
i dont wish to comment on this particular case as i dont know the full facts, but where we used to live in mid wales, due to there being NOPATHS carved into the ground people were for ever getting lost just walking there dogs , we had to bring two ladies we found sat on the side of a logging road , both looked very chilled and well towards hypothermia, we brought them home stuck them infront of out fire called the police station in case someone called them in as missing, and then me and dogs went off to find the two husbands, that was not a polite conversation.
we even had one lady who got lost up on the moor walked up to the house, we had to drive her to the far side to retun her to the car thats an hours drive, all it did was get a little cloudy and she lost her way.
i personal have been helped twice by the mountain rescue, i was lucky those as they were close by any way
we even had one lady who got lost up on the moor walked up to the house, we had to drive her to the far side to retun her to the car thats an hours drive, all it did was get a little cloudy and she lost her way.
i personal have been helped twice by the mountain rescue, i was lucky those as they were close by any way
Many years ago I took Mrs Bigfoot up Ben Ledi for her first hill, as it is a good starter hill for a novice. The (Autumn) conditions at the top were pretty miserable, extremely wet,windy and very poor visibility however we were well equipped and stopped at the summit for a very brief lunch before heading back down. I was astonished to find 2 lads approaching me, both wearing T shirts and denim shorts, soaked to the skin and exposed flesh bright red with the stinging rain. They had become completely disoriented and had no map or compass, nor means of keeping off the rain or getting warm. I had to show them the way off the top and was glad to see them later, safe at the foot of the hill.
It was a very good lesson for the missus, she was so completely gobsmacked that someone could venture out so ill equipped that she dismissed her own discomfort and was never put off climbing any other hills. I never thought she would come out hill walking again but she has been my hill walking companion for over 20 years now
It was a very good lesson for the missus, she was so completely gobsmacked that someone could venture out so ill equipped that she dismissed her own discomfort and was never put off climbing any other hills. I never thought she would come out hill walking again but she has been my hill walking companion for over 20 years now
When one goes into the wilds, particularly mountains, and even more so in winter, take note of the "ten Essentials"
http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/ten+essentials.html
If there is snow on the hill, then obviously one must add an ice axe.
Anybody rescued not having these should be horse-whipped. (and charged - they are here)
http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/ten+essentials.html
If there is snow on the hill, then obviously one must add an ice axe.
Anybody rescued not having these should be horse-whipped. (and charged - they are here)
They aren't in the UK.
Many of our hills are relatively easy to climb.......usually.
Thing is though that our weather is incredibly changeable and what is ample and suitable for a set off to walk for three or four hours *can* become very unsuitable, very rapidly........sometimes.
It's always a judgment call. Do we walk carrying enough 'just in case' to cover everything from brilliant sunshine, torrential rain, gale force winds, balmy calm, midgies, no midgies, fog, smir, hail, snow, a week stranded on the top, as well as the usual trips, slips and tumbles ? or cut down a bit, take enough just to do, and move fast and light ?
People, even very experienced people, compromise to make their walk as enjoyable as possible.
Truthfully nigeltm is the first mountain rescue person I've ever heard who has *ever* commented on actually charging someone for rescue.
Maybe it's a seachange but I know many others and to them the concept is an anathema.
That way lies 'insurance fees' and 'licences' and 'permits' and 'not alloweds', and in a country where the hills are open to all, with a right of access, that's not acceptable.
There's always someone who won't listen, who takes it too far beyond their abilities, who doesn't prepare at all. The vast majority of call outs are for accidents and folks lost though.
At least under this system folks *do* call for help, or would fatalities increase when folks couldn't afford rescue ? I don't think the M. R. teams would like that option tbh.
I take my hat off to the Mountain Rescue Teams I really do, I'm incredibly glad they're prepared to do the job they do; my husband, my sons and my brother, and hundreds of my friends, all walk the hills, and I happily drop a couple of quid in the rattling boxes and buckets when I see them.
To formalise it, define it, charge per manhour, demand financial retribution ? Horsewhip them ? Hmmmm
I do think that their equipment ought to be tax free, that companies who supply them at reduced rates ought to be given credit for sponsorship, and that vehicles ought to be govt supplied though.
Toddy
Many of our hills are relatively easy to climb.......usually.
Thing is though that our weather is incredibly changeable and what is ample and suitable for a set off to walk for three or four hours *can* become very unsuitable, very rapidly........sometimes.
It's always a judgment call. Do we walk carrying enough 'just in case' to cover everything from brilliant sunshine, torrential rain, gale force winds, balmy calm, midgies, no midgies, fog, smir, hail, snow, a week stranded on the top, as well as the usual trips, slips and tumbles ? or cut down a bit, take enough just to do, and move fast and light ?
People, even very experienced people, compromise to make their walk as enjoyable as possible.
Truthfully nigeltm is the first mountain rescue person I've ever heard who has *ever* commented on actually charging someone for rescue.
Maybe it's a seachange but I know many others and to them the concept is an anathema.
That way lies 'insurance fees' and 'licences' and 'permits' and 'not alloweds', and in a country where the hills are open to all, with a right of access, that's not acceptable.
There's always someone who won't listen, who takes it too far beyond their abilities, who doesn't prepare at all. The vast majority of call outs are for accidents and folks lost though.
At least under this system folks *do* call for help, or would fatalities increase when folks couldn't afford rescue ? I don't think the M. R. teams would like that option tbh.
I take my hat off to the Mountain Rescue Teams
I really do, I'm incredibly glad they're prepared to do the job they do; my husband, my sons and my brother, and hundreds of my friends, all walk the hills, and I happily drop a couple of quid in the rattling boxes and buckets when I see them.To formalise it, define it, charge per manhour, demand financial retribution ? Horsewhip them ? Hmmmm
I do think that their equipment ought to be tax free, that companies who supply them at reduced rates ought to be given credit for sponsorship, and that vehicles ought to be govt supplied though.
Toddy
Can't see the problem meself.
The guy wasn't lost by the accounts i've looked at so far, so a map and compass would have made no difference.
It seems he avoided hypothermia, so although a few more layers might had been more comfortable he had just enough to get by (might had been different if he had been forced to stay all night though).
He had the know how and sense to make a shelter and get in it.
If indeed it was the weather turning and catching him out, then i can't see how anything else would have made much of a difference.
Would the MR have made a rescue attempt that night if he'd had a plastic bag and a spare set of clothes?
I'd guess his Mrs would still had called them when he hadn't returned after a certain time.
So IF he wasn't lost and IF MR would still had been called out if he had a survival bag, i don't see how any of that stuff made any difference?
About the only thing he could have done different was check the weather report, even then though knowing how bad the weather reports are he might well have done that as well.
Cheers
Mark
The guy wasn't lost by the accounts i've looked at so far, so a map and compass would have made no difference.
It seems he avoided hypothermia, so although a few more layers might had been more comfortable he had just enough to get by (might had been different if he had been forced to stay all night though).
He had the know how and sense to make a shelter and get in it.
If indeed it was the weather turning and catching him out, then i can't see how anything else would have made much of a difference.
Would the MR have made a rescue attempt that night if he'd had a plastic bag and a spare set of clothes?
I'd guess his Mrs would still had called them when he hadn't returned after a certain time.
So IF he wasn't lost and IF MR would still had been called out if he had a survival bag, i don't see how any of that stuff made any difference?
About the only thing he could have done different was check the weather report, even then though knowing how bad the weather reports are he might well have done that as well.
Cheers
Mark
It's even better nowadays with mobile phones, gps's and constantly improving communications.
Folks usually, (mine 'always' do; they say I can't nag, but I can fair pester them until they mind and give me a time to have them contact me, or I'm phoning the police and asking for help) leave a time after which if they haven't returned or contacted, then someone phones the police and starts the ball rolling, and people start looking for them. Mobile phones make most contact so much easier
I think Doc's original point was very well made though,a nd incredibly valid......sometimes it's just as important to think twice about going any further, or indeed going out on the hill or moor at all, as carrying everything including the kitchen sink, just in case.
cheers,
Toddy
Folks usually, (mine 'always' do; they say I can't nag,
but I can fair pester them until they mind and give me a time to have them contact me, or I'm phoning the police and asking for help) leave a time after which if they haven't returned or contacted, then someone phones the police and starts the ball rolling, and people start looking for them. Mobile phones make most contact so much easier I think Doc's original point was very well made though,a nd incredibly valid......sometimes it's just as important to think twice about going any further, or indeed going out on the hill or moor at all, as carrying everything including the kitchen sink, just in case.
cheers,
Toddy
@Toddy - most of the hills here in the NE where I hike are not that much higher than the UK. Much of the "ten" you wouldn't think of going without, food, water rain wear (I grew up hiking in N Wales and The Lakes, so I know how changeable the weather can be). My three season day pack is 18 liters and easily accommodates the kit, so why not just do it. You know (as they say) it makes sense. Its like wearing a seat belt in your car, or a helmet on a motor bike, its stupid not to. Hypothermia is just to easy to get into, even for people who should know better. Read Bill Bryson "A Walk in the Woods." He is a very experienced hiker. Read the chapter of his climb of the Franconia Ridge. Because he forgot to take a waterproof shell he became hypothermic. I think that chapter should be required reading for any hill hiker. The danger in winter, with wet snow and higher winds is increased by an order of magnitude, and should be treated accordingly. The guy in this story was lucky, there was cell reception, many of the local hills I hike have little or no reception, so self-sufficiency is important. Costs very little to put the kit together and it weighs next to nothing. D of E training IIRC also preach such kit requirements. Having it as a set of 10 rules makes it easier to impress the importance. I believe there are many scout leaders on this forum. It would be instructive to learn their thoughts on the 10 essentials.
Have to be honest here, if i'm not camping out the night then i will not take any food out with me (except the obvious sandwich and chocolate bar).
It's also extremely rare i take a knife with me on day hikes, and certainly no fire starting equipment.
If i'm hiking close to home then it's also very rare i'll even bother taking a map and compass.
I do pack a shower proof coat this time of year though.
I do agree it's wise to take precautions.
I don't agree a 10 point list is effective in all situations.
If you light a fire up in the mountains in Greece in summer then you'll be putting yourself and many others in direct danger.
So matches/lighter is useless in most the places i walk 7 months of the year (for emergency use).
As is spare clothes and emergency shelter.
Being an adult it's up to me to take responsibility for myself, i take what i feel i would need and have a contingency plan for most emergency situations i can foresee.
I'm not going to start carrying a 18 litre rucksack for a 4 hour hike 6km from my house though and that's me on a very sedate amble, for this guy being a runner he'll logically want to be as light as possible, as any extra weight will wear you down and make you less mobile, so you'll get tired quicker and fall heavier if you do trip.
Obviously common sense must be used and a balance needs to be found.
A plastic bivvy bag will weigh very little and could be stuffed down the back of his trousers, i can't see much point him taking a knife and fire starting equipment in those conditions though.
In fact from what i've read so far about this case i can't see how any of the "10 Essentials" would have helped this guy out.
- Map
- Compass
- Sunglasses and sunscreen
- Extra clothing
- Headlamp/flashlight
- First-aid supplies
- Firestarter
- Matches
- Knife
- Extra food
#3
#4 Almost certainly would have made the guy a little more comfortable, but as he wasn't suffering from Hypothermia after rescued it's obvious his clothing was sufficient, if only just efficient, would extra clothing have prevented the call out though?
Doubtful IMO.
#5 Possibly could have helped to signal his exact location to speed up his rescue, would not have prevented the call out though.
#6 #9 #10 Can't see any of those would have avoided the call out
#8 I'm doubtful it would have been possible to find enough materials for a fire in those conditions, never mind start a fire.
If he'd taken a bivvy bag, a 4 season sleeping bag, full cooking set and stove, Knife, Peking duck in a bag and 2 rolls of duck tape i'm still confident that the Mrs would have called out the MR.
So apart from him being more comfortable and having a larger window for rescue (i.e, the MR might had been able to go for him the following day IF the weather had improved) i'm not really seeing how he could have done anything (apart from the weather check) different enough to prevent the MR being called out.
Unless i'm missing something?
Cheers
Mark
It does seem to come down the skills, knowledge and a bit of forward planning but all these and the correct kit can land anyone in a sticky situation. Don't get me wrong if someone is an idiot, they need telling.
This is a pretty big topic and not one that we'll thrash out by looking at one case.
I'd also like to think that anyone who got rescued would try and fundraise to cover the cost to the volunteer services. Far better good karma and regulating enjoyment of a day outside - it's hard enough to get people off the sofa already.
This is a pretty big topic and not one that we'll thrash out by looking at one case.
I'd also like to think that anyone who got rescued would try and fundraise to cover the cost to the volunteer services. Far better good karma and regulating enjoyment of a day outside - it's hard enough to get people off the sofa already.
@cbr6fs - you may laugh, but the fact is that UV exposure increases ca. 4% for every 1000 ft (300 metres) and snow reflects 80% of the UV striking it. Ask a Cairngorm ski instructor, they will tell you that sun glasses or snow goggles are essential for those days when its not actually snowing. Get snow blind and you can do nothing to help yourself.
Snow, or mist, and wind can come on very quickly at over 2000 feet (600 metres) and no ,matter how well you think you know that particular hill, you will likely become disorientated/lost and need navigation aids. GPS is great, but I wouldn't rely on it completely and have back up map and compass. It will also then become cold and wet so insulation and W/WP gear needed.
Same applies to cell phones. no bars and your screwed, drop it and your screwed. The report under discussion shows that the walker was in the early stages of hypothermia when reached by the rescue squad. No cell phone contact, later alarm, he might well have been dead when found (people do really stupid things when hypothermic, even experienced climbers - like leaving their snow hole, throw off their outer clothing and attempting to run to perceived safety - they usually die.
Fire - surely, most people on this board take some form of brew kit with them on a day out?
Hydration and calories are a major protection against hypothermia and against dehydration in warm weather. take sufficient water and at least a couple of Mars bars. On a ten hour summer climb I need at least 3 litres to avoid dehydration, and 2 litres in the winter.
FAK - your mate slips and slices an arm when falling are you content to let him/her bleed for hours until help arrives? No, at least you should be able to stitch it or make butterfly sutures. Sprained ankles are common, are you content to sit there until rescued?
And there was me, thinking that bushcrafting was something to do with survival and self sufficiency.
Snow, or mist, and wind can come on very quickly at over 2000 feet (600 metres) and no ,matter how well you think you know that particular hill, you will likely become disorientated/lost and need navigation aids. GPS is great, but I wouldn't rely on it completely and have back up map and compass. It will also then become cold and wet so insulation and W/WP gear needed.
Same applies to cell phones. no bars and your screwed, drop it and your screwed. The report under discussion shows that the walker was in the early stages of hypothermia when reached by the rescue squad. No cell phone contact, later alarm, he might well have been dead when found (people do really stupid things when hypothermic, even experienced climbers - like leaving their snow hole, throw off their outer clothing and attempting to run to perceived safety - they usually die.
Fire - surely, most people on this board take some form of brew kit with them on a day out?
Hydration and calories are a major protection against hypothermia and against dehydration in warm weather. take sufficient water and at least a couple of Mars bars. On a ten hour summer climb I need at least 3 litres to avoid dehydration, and 2 litres in the winter.
FAK - your mate slips and slices an arm when falling are you content to let him/her bleed for hours until help arrives? No, at least you should be able to stitch it or make butterfly sutures. Sprained ankles are common, are you content to sit there until rescued?
And there was me, thinking that bushcrafting was something to do with survival and self sufficiency.
Bushcraft is about craft in the "bush" this man was not doing that pastime... He was running in the hills... I have never seen a runner push their ideals on a bushcrafter or seem to assume ownership over the proper use of wild areas but we, as bushcrafters, seem to revel in telling others how to use 'our' hills.
Maybe there is a post on a fell running forum somewhere talking about an inexperienced bushcrafter getting stuck in the hills over night and needing rescue because they were not willing to ditch their cooking equipment and escape the situation... That would be quite funny.
For me, I am happy that the bloke got out ok, learned a lesson (in a positive way, not learned his lesson) and that the story made it to public view so others can think about things more. Most mountain rescue people love what they do. If everyone was perfectly safe you wouldn't be doing what you love and the world would be boring.
Maybe there is a post on a fell running forum somewhere talking about an inexperienced bushcrafter getting stuck in the hills over night and needing rescue because they were not willing to ditch their cooking equipment and escape the situation... That would be quite funny.
For me, I am happy that the bloke got out ok, learned a lesson (in a positive way, not learned his lesson) and that the story made it to public view so others can think about things more. Most mountain rescue people love what they do. If everyone was perfectly safe you wouldn't be doing what you love and the world would be boring.
He's a Fell Runner, these folk travel ultra light - minimum kit. The chap recognised he was in trouble, used his survival skills in calling for help, making a shelter and staying put. Given the speed with which conditions can change up there it seems to me the guy got it about right; remember he walked off the hill albeit with some support.
At least he is out there in the winter...how many fully equipped (up to the eyeballs) 'bushcrafters' are out in those conditions? Not a lot I'm guessing.
At least he is out there in the winter...how many fully equipped (up to the eyeballs) 'bushcrafters' are out in those conditions? Not a lot I'm guessing.
Perhaps, therein lies the problem. Maybe he should have stuck to lower ground in the conditions that are present at the moment up north. Lightly equipped is different to inadequately equipped. I wouldn't consider myself as a 'bushcrafter', more a wild camper who camps mostly on summits. I am out quite a lot in the winter, as I enjoy the challenges that the season brings. I travel light, but that means lightweight (but comprehensive) kit, not lack of kit. I think he did the right thing once he found himself in trouble, but could have avoided it if he had turned back when the snow came up to his knees...Still an a**e in my book..
Where would people be without the mountain rescue services when they get into difficulties ? and where would the mountain rescue services be without people who get into difficulties to rescue.?
I'm sure you know just how things change up there? Minutes perhaps. Inadequately equipped? Managed to make a shelter so not such an a**e as you so eloquently put it. He's equipped for his sport, if he was carting tents et al he'd be a hill walker like you.
I think he just made one poor judgement call... Not an ****. An **** makes a poor judgement call and then tries to correct that poor call by making further poor ones.
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