Chemicals in water

[The Quiet Farm]

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the dangers of chemicals in collected water. So there are a variety of methods to filter or neutralise bacteria in water but these don't filter out chemical contaminants. Most of my wild camping is near farmland. There is most definitely large amounts of 'nasties' being sprayed onto the land with an inevitable runoff into the rivers that I collect water from. Is there any need for concern health wise? I'm guessing that the dilution of such chemicals render them safe, but that's a guess.
Any thoughts? Thanks

Richard

 

[British Red]

Thats almost an impossible question to answer - it very much depends on the chemical. Some chemicals - especially heavy metals - are not only toxic but cumulatively poisonous. They can be found in run off - but more often from mines in remote regions than European farms. I'm very surprised that Agricultural run off is allowed in Holland to be honest - there are very strict rules about it in the UK and EU.

 

[The Quiet Farm]

I'm very surprised that Agricultural run off is allowed in Holland to be honest - there are very strict rules about it in the UK and EU.

Thanks British Red. When I used the term 'runoff' I just referred to what I thought of as inevitable transfer of chemicals used on farm land finding their way to a water source. Perhaps that is simply not the case? If there are strict rules , then perhaps it's not an issue.
Most of my wild camping is done in Ireland rather than Holland. (It's quite hard to find any sense of wild here.) But your answer covers the EU.
So perhaps it would be fair to assume that it's generally not an issue within the EU.

 

[British Red]

Any water source can contain pollutants. Examine any canal that passes through a city - you will see oil on the surface. What is true of most of Western Europe is that large scale industrial, agricultural or mining pollution is illegal and monitoring is in place to prevent it. Smaller, faster moving water sources (close to the source) are less likely to collect such pollutants in any case.

If it is of concern, use a water filter with an activated charcoal stage which will adsorb (chemically bond with) some chemical pollutants. Ensure the filter also is one of the new type that remove viruses as well as bacteria, protozoa and cysts (or contains a chemical stage to deal with them). You should be fine if you are sensible in your water selection.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the dangers of chemicals in collected water. So there are a variety of methods to filter or neutralise bacteria in water but these don't filter out chemical contaminants. Most of my wild camping is near farmland. There is most definitely large amounts of 'nasties' being sprayed onto the land with an inevitable runoff into the rivers that I collect water from. Is there any need for concern health wise? I'm guessing that the dilution of such chemicals render them safe, but that's a guess.
Any thoughts? Thanks

There are some *REAL* nasty things that farmers can spray on their fields, and given the terrain of the Netherlands, there is very little that can be done to stop that leaching into the water courses. Aside from the fertilisers that can be sprayed, you also have the wonders of things like Organophosphates. These are horrendous and if you get poisoning from them then you are in for a long hard slog out the other side. A dive partner of mine got OP poisoning, and it left her nearly crippled, not nice.

Even when actions are taken to prevent the stuff leaching from the ground to the water (impossible when the water table is so high as it is in .nl), the omni directional wind of the Netherlands will blow the aerosoled chemicals into the water.

In short: I wouldn't drink any water from the low lands of Holland, and much of the rest of the Netherlands. Some of the streams in Zuid Limberg I may consider, but it would be on a case by case basis, and I may climb right to their source to check them (easier to do when the highest point is 326m).

Sorry, that might not have been what you wanted to hear.

Thats almost an impossible question to answer - it very much depends on the chemical. Some chemicals - especially heavy metals - are not only toxic but cumulatively poisonous. They can be found in run off - but more often from mines in remote regions than European farms. I'm very surprised that Agricultural run off is allowed in Holland to be honest - there are very strict rules about it in the UK and EU.

It's very hard to control when the water table is so close to the surface. Even putting the cows on the field can lead to eutrification from their manure.

What compounds this of course is that the Netherlands is the end of a water flow that starts in the Swiss Alps, and flows through the heavily industrialised Rhine Lands of the Ruhrgebiet, then you hit the massive water control measures, meaning that you've got no real knowing of where the water in this little drainage channel has come from.

Thanks British Red. When I used the term 'runoff' I just referred to what I thought of as inevitable transfer of chemicals used on farm land finding their way to a water source. Perhaps that is simply not the case? If there are strict rules , then perhaps it's not an issue.
Most of my wild camping is done in Ireland rather than Holland. (It's quite hard to find any sense of wild here.) But your answer covers the EU.
So perhaps it would be fair to assume that it's generally not an issue within the EU.

Yep, anything you spray on the land will eventually end up in a water source. There are measures to reduce this, such as not spraying when it's raining, or heavy rain is forecast, limits on wind speed, and all sorts of other methods. But the simple truth is, you stick it on the land, you stick it in the water. Some natural items like manure and urine from livestock is eventually broken down in the soil, and doesn't contaminate the water sources, assuming a low enough stocking density, and the water table isn't too high. Very hard to achieve in somewhere like the Netherlands.

Oh, and if you were worried about what farmers pump onto the land, spare a thought for what is coming out the boats on the canals. Sit by theAmsterdam-Rijnkanaal, and just watch the slick that follows many of the boats.

On my recent trip in Kent, I crossed a grass field, and you could see between the grass there were small granules of fertiliser that had been spread on the field. The slope and position of the field meant that water sources adjacent to, and down hill of this field are now not suitable for human use, even with a filter.

Dank u wel.

Julia

 

[santaman2000]

....Yep, anything you spray on the land will eventually end up in a water source. There are measures to reduce this, such as not spraying when it's raining, or heavy rain is forecast, limits on wind speed, and all sorts of other methods. But the simple truth is, you stick it on the land, you stick it in the water.....

That's the bottom line. Florida has controls in place also (although more for pollution from paved areas than agricultural ones. It requires a retention pond to hold storm runoff until the contaminates can filter before allowing it downstream and into the estuary system.

However said ponds usually overflow with heavy rains and all I've seen them accomplish is to provide increased mosquito breeding grounds.

 

[The Quiet Farm]

Well thank you all for your thoughts. It makes for depressing but not altogether surprising reading. I certainly wouldn't try to drink anything in Holland. As mentioned, my question was more geared towards Ireland as this is where I do most of my wild camping, but unless I'm going somewhere high (near the source) it seems carrying water in would be a smarter move. Thanks again to you all for your comments.

Richard

 

[The Quiet Farm]

If it is of concern, use a water filter with an activated charcoal stage which will adsorb (chemically bond with) some chemical pollutants. Ensure the filter also is one of the new type that remove viruses as well as bacteria, protozoa and cysts (or contains a chemical stage to deal with them). You should be fine if you are sensible in your water selection.

I just had a look at a filter that I have but rarely used - an MSR Miniworks. I seems that this has a charcoal stage and is effective against chemicals (how effective I'm not sure). So perhaps throwing this in the pack is the answer.

Richard

 

[British Red]

That will work just fine - especially if you are in the moor and mountain areas - not much spraying there and you are higher up (closer to source)

 

[Chiseller]

So What abaht us.....we're off grid at present and tapping into a works water source. The gaff a is trying to get me to put my name down and start paying water rates with my name on the meter in a domestic fashion.
That's not going to happen. We have a river 100yards from our door so to speak. It's only a mile from an industrial town, with all the added ingrediants and more.

I'm thinking for our toilet water , washing water , kettle water of getting one of the big lifesaver type units . Drinking water we would by smart price drinking water.

This is all push comes to shove.....Can't say too much here , but I'm sure most will get the gust

Nailed Horbury Bridge rapids .....wooooooo

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Chiseller,

I wouldn't drink any of the water from the source you describe, it's fine for grey water use, and may even be ok for showering if filtered. But I wouldn't want to consume it.

Read up a bit on bio accumulative toxins.

J

 

[xylaria]

All toxins are matter of concentration. I dont eat grapes, perfect looking apples grown abroad, and i wont eat a plum unless I picked myself. However I will swim in quiet british waters and will drink suitability cleaned water from streams. I figure the fruit from dodgy sources will have far more OPs than any river water. Good farming practice doesnt loose ferts or pesticide to a water course. The fines are huge and it is waste of resources. Phosphate fertiliser is not in any way related organophosphate pesticides. If a stream has aquatic life it is healthy enough to be drunk once treated as far as I am concerned.

I would not swim or drink river water that hd been through a town. I would flush a loo with it maybe if I had to but wearing gloves. I used row on the river thames. I got really ill the one time I fell in. Rat pee is not good on small cuts.

 

[The Quiet Farm]

Just read your Science Of Water post British Red. Excellent article.

 

[petrochemicals]

So What abaht us.....we're off grid at present and tapping into a works water source. The gaff a is trying to get me to put my name down and start paying water rates with my name on the meter in a domestic fashion.
That's not going to happen. We have a river 100yards from our door so to speak. It's only a mile from an industrial town, with all the added ingrediants and more.

I'm thinking for our toilet water , washing water , kettle water of getting one of the big lifesaver type units . Drinking water we would by smart price drinking water.

This is all push comes to shove.....Can't say too much here , but I'm sure most will get the gust

Nailed Horbury Bridge rapids .....wooooooo

Build a high up water tower and stick a water wheel in the river to pump it up. Then get a domestic in line water filter. From what I have read of the domestic ceramic/carbon combo jobs, they faithfully filter everything from the water at a very small fraction of a penny/per litre.

As for the chemicals yes, diesil spill, paint, destroy your liver and kidneys for good at the very least. Then theres hepatitis, heavy metals, serious infections not just a tummy ache, and lots else. How to get rid of them entirely is looking like a huge filter. I don't trust backpacking filters, so am still very careful, it only takes a knock for a failure, and then its as good as no filter at all. Flocculants (thoes water clearing sachets you may have seen in africa on tv)and chlorine seems to be the most failsafe, or charcoal and either boiling or chemical. If you don't like the chemical taste I think the charcoal will filter that if you re filter it, that chould be able to tell you by taste if the filters failed. I think the britta filter needs adapting, cheap and easily accessible, and two in a pack.

 

[ged]

At my place of work we occasionally would get a strange taste in the water. I called the water company and spoke to the technical people. I asked them if they might have been putting too much (of whatever they put into the water) into the water.

The reply was "We don't put anything into the water. We just pump it out of the ground, and into the pipe. That's it."

He didn't say exactly where out of the ground, but it can't be very far away from farms, motorways and industry because nowhere within fifty miles of here is very far from farms, motorways and industry.

I sent some samples for testing. We all thought it tasted disgusting but the water company laboratory said it was fine to drink.

We've all been drinking that water for thirty years, apparently without ill effect, so I think you can worry too much about what's in the water.

All the same if I'm not going to boil it, I mostly drink bottled water at 17p for 2 litres from the local supermarket and I use the empty bottles to keep a huge stash at work in case we have another 'tasty water' incident.

To rotate the stash a bit I use it when I go camping.

Obviously if you're near land densely populated with livestock use your loaf. There's a world of difference between what's allowed and what's done.

 

[Bluffer]

I'm fairly certain that if you have a domestic private water supply, then the local authority are mandated to sample and test the source for safety.

 

[cbr6fs]

So What abaht us.....we're off grid at present and tapping into a works water source. The gaff a is trying to get me to put my name down and start paying water rates with my name on the meter in a domestic fashion.
That's not going to happen. We have a river 100yards from our door so to speak. It's only a mile from an industrial town, with all the added ingrediants and more.

I'm thinking for our toilet water , washing water , kettle water of getting one of the big lifesaver type units . Drinking water we would by smart price drinking water.

This is all push comes to shove.....Can't say too much here , but I'm sure most will get the gust

Nailed Horbury Bridge rapids .....wooooooo

Seems like you have 3 choices to me

1/ Continue tapping into and nicking water from the works

2/ Get a proper supply installed that you pay rates on

3/ Use river and bottled water

Don't know your exact circumstances but for me personally i'd morally struggle to do #1 long term

I wouldn't risk using river water, plus by the time you've done buying bottled water and filters it'd just be cheaper to do #2

As you say you can't say much more there are obviously other factors to consider, but i wouldn't nick water from a neighbour or neighbouring business and i wouldn't use unfiltered river water from a river near a populated area to shower with.

How about catching rain water, is that an option?

Won't cover all your needs and you need to be careful that the catchment panels are clean from bird poop, but it might be a better solution for at least some of your brown water supply?

 

[cbr6fs]

Build a high up water tower and stick a water wheel in the river to pump it up. Then get a domestic in line water filter. From what I have read of the domestic ceramic/carbon combo jobs, they faithfully filter everything from the water at a very small fraction of a penny/per litre.

As for the chemicals yes, diesil spill, paint, destroy your liver and kidneys for good at the very least. Then theres hepatitis, heavy metals, serious infections not just a tummy ache, and lots else. How to get rid of them entirely is looking like a huge filter. I don't trust backpacking filters, so am still very careful, it only takes a knock for a failure, and then its as good as no filter at all. Flocculants (thoes water clearing sachets you may have seen in africa on tv)and chlorine seems to be the most failsafe, or charcoal and either boiling or chemical. If you don't like the chemical taste I think the charcoal will filter that if you re filter it, that chould be able to tell you by taste if the filters failed. I think the britta filter needs adapting, cheap and easily accessible, and two in a pack.

Seems like you're getting a bit muddled up mate, hope you are doing well as you're usually pretty precise in your opinions.

Problem you have here is that you can't realistically filter out all concerning containments that are likely to be in a river close to a densely populated area.

For filtering you generally have 2 options.

1/ A hole of a certain size allows particles smaller through but stops anything bigger.
This is handy for stopping bacteria or viruses depending on the hole or pore size, it's not much use for chemical filtration, poisons or heavy metals though.

2/ Activated carbon has the ability to attract and hold onto certain elements like heavy metals.
Again though it does filter out poisons or all heavy metals

Filtering out bacteria and viruses is pretty simple these days, even if we can't filter them out we can treat the water chemically, boil it or use UV light to remove them.

In densely populated population areas these are not the only concern though, many contaminants like heavy metals, pollution run off, oil, poisons etc are really really tough to filter out.

There are systems like reverse osmosis that are extremely effective at removing most of the concerning items (not all though) the system also removes many salts and minerals that makes water as good as it is.
Plus again it's expensive to run and maintain and extremely slow (i use RO water for my fish tanks).

 

[Ogri the trog]

I'm fairly certain that if you have a domestic private water supply, then the local authority are mandated to sample and test the source for safety.

Not completely true Bluffer - there is some encouragement for them (and consumers) to have their private water supplies tested and approved but there are a great percentage of them that use the adage - it ain't poisoned me yet, so there is no need to pay good money for someone to tell me what I already know!

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[petrochemicals]

cheers for that cbr6fs, only had a quick look at them as I do not use them . Only thing I could suggest would be a few of them in line, and get the water tested before you drink. Take the water from the top not the bottom of the river. Theres bound to be something in the future, graphene is looking good in this regard

www.pureflo.co.uk/index.php/problem/

sand filter or something perhaps?