Carving gouge advice wanted

[Hammock Hamster]

Hi all,

I have been after a swan/dog leg carving gouge for a while and would really like one of these

http://nicwestermann.co.uk/shop/greenwood-carving-blades/70-mm-swan-neck-bowl-gouge/

I own several of Nics tools and can attest to their quality but with his busy schedule he has been out of stock of these for a while now and I'm itching to try out some new carving styles.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a similar tool that are more likely to be available?
I know hans karlson do something similar but don't have any experience with the brand myself.

In essence I am looking for something to help carving the bottoms and lower walls of bowls/Kuksas etc... both for general hollowing and finishing and prefer to do everything by hand rather than any sort of power tools.

Thanks in advance.

Hamster


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[Herbalist1]

Different technique but you could try a ring scorp.

 

[Robson Valley]

I can't remember the number sequence from the London Pattern book. But there are long bent, short bent and tracery bent gouges. Ashley Iles, Pfeil, to name a couple of mainstream makers for the wood carving business. I like a 9/15 for the rough work and a 2/12 smooths down the ridge tool marks.

The other, quite different appoach is to consider the crooked knive designs common in the Pacific Northwest of North America. There's very little that you cannot do with the sweep of J-blade.
Top bladesmiths are Kestrel Tool (blades and finished knives), North Bay Forge (finished knives) and Cariboo Forge (blades and knives).
The additional advantage is that the blades are surface-hafted. There's no mechanical requirement for a round handle and a center-hafted blade as is the Scandanavian style of crooked knife.

Lastly: You can revise the bevel angle to 12 degrees and use farrier's hoof-trimming crooked knives, Mora 171 and 188 are typical shapes.
The hardest steels are used in the French UKAL Supervet and the Canadian Hall farrier's knives.
Together with Diamond 271 (Taiwan), I carve with 14 or those, only 4 have their original handles, which really are OK as is.

If you don't like the new prices, chat with your local farrier = what they call "worn out" is still plenty of steel for any wood carving.

Herbalist makes a good point about using a scorp. That's the beauty of a farrier's knife = you get a scorp for a tip, every time! (For trimming/cleaning the frog on a hoof.)

 

[Herbalist1]

I agree with RV regarding the Native American crooked knife - a very versatile tool.
You can get them with an inside or outside bevel. I'd say the inside bevel makes for a far more versatile tool - you can use the longer, straighter part of the blade like a draw knife and the curved tip like a standard crook knife. However, if you needed a tighter cutting radius eg for spoon bowls, an outside bevel allows that.

If if you need to get into the bottom of a deep, narrow bowl ( ie you can't get your hand inside), you might struggle a bit with a crooked knife or a hoof knife - then a ring scorp would be perfect. Likewise, if you are carving a lot of large bowls and need to remove a lot of material, a ring scorp is a good tool - you can use it with two hands which is less tiring on the hands. If that isn't going to be a problem then a crooked knife will serve you well and you'll be able to use it for a much wider range of tasks too.

 

[Robson Valley]

Careful, Herbalist. Crooked knives in native North American cultures are very different animals.

The "Mocotaugan" knive is an icon of the eastern "birch building cultures."
The Hudson's Bay Company was selling Sheffield blades by the barrel by 1760.
I have one. A modern one, but nonetheless a Sheffield blade (thank you, Tombear) of the oldest design.

The crooked knives of the Pacific Northwest native cultures are primarily carving and detail tools.
Here, western red cedar is the multipurpose tree for garments, houses, dishes and iconic carvings.

If you have not seen them, I will post them again = Dragonfly dishes with straight, flat insides and flat bottoms.
Things which would be damn difficult for me to have carved with any of my conventional(?) gouges.)

 

[Hammock Hamster]

Thanks guys, I have been considering adding a scorp to my arsenal and until now had only really seen it as a slightly more versatile spoon knife and not something for bowls so a little rethink may be required.
I still want a dog leg/swan neck gouge as I am making some medium sized bowls and can see it being very useful for this.
I do have a hans karlson finishing gouge which has a modest bend but for narrow/deep bowls it will only go so far.


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[Herbalist1]

Careful, Herbalist. Crooked knives in native North American cultures are very different animals.

The "Mocotaugan" knive is an icon of the eastern "birch building cultures."
The Hudson's Bay Company was selling Sheffield blades by the barrel by 1760.
I have one. A modern one, but nonetheless a Sheffield blade (thank you, Tombear) of the oldest design.

The crooked knives of the Pacific Northwest native cultures are primarily carving and detail tools.
Here, western red cedar is the multipurpose tree for garments, houses, dishes and iconic carvings.

If you have not seen them, I will post them again = Dragonfly dishes with straight, flat insides and flat bottoms.
Things which would be damn difficult for me to have carved with any of my conventional(?) gouges.)

Sorry RV I should have been more specific - I was thinking along the Mocotaugan lines. I've got a version by a well known English knife maker and it really is a truly versatile tool much more so than a Scandinavian type crook knife which I also use. It has an inner bevel which makes it useful as a draw knife and the curved tip ( less pronounced curve than on the Scandinavian type) great for carving though with a less tight carving radius than you'd get with an external bevel. still useful for the inside of bowls but not so much for spoons. I don't have experience with other Native American designs so couldn't comment and bow to your experience there.

 

[Robson Valley]

Over the years, I've accumulated quite a selection of wood carving gouges, almost all Pfeil. While the PacNW native crooked knives were a curiosity to me, I assumed that the carvers made their own. Many still do. One day, I watched a Haida carver, working with what turned out to be a left & right pair of Mora 171 Equus farrier's knives. I guess in return for my curiosity, he explained the needed bevel modification. The value of the scorp tips was not lost on me, either. I bought 2 pairs and a Mora 188 (double edge) to make a planer knife. Depending on the diameter of the prep chainsaw file, I had little scorps from 7/32" down to 1/8". Years passed as I became aware of Kestrel, North Bay and Cariboo as the best PacNW bladesmiths.

Typical PacNW blades are several sizes. Usually double-bevelled on top with pointed tips. So I bought some with different sweeps. By that time, I was busting up the farrier's knives and surface hafting the blades PacNW style, anyway.Their softwood performance is quite remarkable. Left, right, upside down, I could carve in ways that the Pfeil gouges couldn't match. Even the width of the blade metal determines the radius of what I can and can't carve smoothly.

Anyway. If I have some hindsight to offer, it's this: start somewhere. Used farrier's knives ought to be cheap (new Hall $50, used Hall $5). I found it hard to know what questions to ask without some experience. I sell started grape vine cuttings in the summer farmer's market in the village. I'll take some carving and tools to while away the slow times. The only people interested in the carving as native carvers and all they want to do is talk tools!

 

[Herbalist1]

Thanks for sharing that RV - useful info.
Ive never used a farriers knife (often called hoof knife over here) but I was aware that some people had used them. Just be checking out suppliers and They are available from about £4, and the Mora 171 about £17 so I can see how it would be relatively cheap to pick these up and modify as you did. That's a good tip for getting a tool that meets your needs rather than just managing with what is already out there.

 

[Robson Valley]

I didn't hesitate to attack some of the farrier blades with a Dremel and cutoff disks to change or eliminate the scorp tips.

Kestrel has a page of crooked knife blade specifications.
Their C-C will go a long way but the profile isn't dramatically better than a repurposed & used farrier's hoof blade.

I have most of the Haida style carving blades that you can see in the Lee Valley catalog. Lots of sharpening fiddle to get them to cut.
I make very rare use of the two with the most dramatic sweeps for the kinds of carvings that I like to do.