Carrying knives in Scotland

[tyfy]

I just noticed this and thought it would be of interest to those of us north of the border.

Labour's deputy leader Cathy Jamieson, who had to take over the questioning from Wendy Alexander after that last gasp, asked him (Alex Salmond) about knife crime. When was he going to introduce an automatic jail sentence for anyone found carrying a knife?

"We are considering that," said Mr Salmond

This was taken from the BBC news site from an article on the Scottish Parliaments last day before the summer break.

I am not sure of any other context for this but I think it is worth keeping an eye on.

Richard

 

[sandbender]

"Labour's deputy leader Cathy Jamieson, who had to take over the questioning from Wendy Alexander after that last gasp, asked him about knife crime. When was he going to introduce an automatic jail sentence for anyone found carrying a knife?
"We are considering that," said Mr Salmond,"

It may be that the jail sentence would only be automatic if the person in possession of the knife can be convicted of a crime, the defense of 'good reason' may still apply. Otherwise the prisons would soon be overflowing with ghillies and fishermen

However, politicians will be involved in the decision making process, so it will definitely worth keeping an eye on developments.

 

[-Switch-]

I wouldn't have thought it was anything to get worried about. I take it to mean that they are considering tougher sentences for those found breaking the law.

They can't change the law and jail anyone found in possession of a knife as that would be massively impractical.
Those of us who use a knife as a tool and have good reason to have one on us shouldn't be concerned. We don't break the law - we're participants in a hobby that requires the use of edged tools and we use them safely and responsibly. If anything we promote the proper use of a knife and should be praised for that.

Like I said, I wouldn't worry.

 

[malente]

Well history has it that even unrealistic and scary things can become law.

Common sense is not that common and only present in some common people. Politicians are not common people....

Mike

 

[Toddy]

The thing is that knife crime is a valid concern up here.
e.g.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.1542221.0.0.php

Can we discuss this issue without bringing politics into it, please?

My personal view is that unless it is in an inappropriate social situation then there ought to be no problem with someone having a knife in their possession.
That said, ought that person be a 15 year old boy with a known history of gang involvement ? Or do we always stick to the innocent until proven guilty.........remember that this is the country that retains the Not Proven verdict.....we have a different outlook on legal matters.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

My personal view is that one should apply the logic of consistency.

There are, undeniably a large numer of knife crimes. Far far higher than, for example, gun crimes. Now whatever logic applies ahould apply even handedly.

If one sees that banning an item is for the "greater good" - in the way that banning airguns because of inappropriate use leading to injury by urban youths is for the "greater good", then surely banning carrying knives because of inappropriate use leading to injury by urban youths is equally for "the greater good".

I have heard in the past that the majority are opposed to using firearms. I suspect the same majority are opposed to carrying knives. I'm sure a licensing scheme could be brought in for essential users (the above mentioned ghillies and fishermen)

Whether you believe in a ban or not, I think its inescapable that both are tools in the right hands and both are capable of injury or death in the wrong hands, I can completely accept a view of for or against, but a consistent approach is only logical

Red

 

[Toddy]

But we are not a rigid or totalitarian state, and the gun issue is more than emotive in Scotland. The right to bear 'arms' has never been a right here, the right to carry a knife about one's person for one's personal use was something even the edicts against the Jacobite uprisings did not prohibit.


BR, this thread is a dicussion about the possession of knives and bringing in the gun issue, on which we have already disagreed, is not helpful.

Toddy

 

[British Red]

I disagree Toddy - my point is simply that these things that can do harm. Indeed I suspect that they are the most commonly used instrument of harm. If there is widespread knife crime and it is, as you point out, a valid concern, then surely the proposal to ban carrying them is both logical and consistent. I do agree though that they are necessary to certain people in carrying out their job. A license based upon need would solve that problem very easily - for Ghillies and (employed) fishemen.

Knife crime is on the rise in Scotland - indeed in 2003, nearly half of all murders comitted in Scotland were committed with knives (total murders 118, knife murders 55)

In the words of the Scottish Government website

Knives are lethal weapons, and we cannot allow people to carry them for 'protection' or as a status symbol. Carrying a knife can often be the first step towards becoming a criminal; the first step towards taking a life; the first step towards tearing apart the very fabric of our communities.

Now surely since carying a knife can often be the first step into becoming a criminal and being the most commonly used instrument of muder they should be the absolute first priority in reducing murder and violence

Helpfully, the same government website provides a helpful definition of the problem

proposals to restrict the sale of knives should focus on those knives with no clear domestic purpose

"a knife which has a blade or sharp point, and which is not designed only for domestic use, or only for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food."

Thats surely something we can all rally behind? The most common form of murder, something that is un-necessary and not for domestic purpose.

The proposal is consistent with public concern, the Scottish governments consulation document and reducing the most common instrument in murder - what on earth is wrong with that? Surely the most emotive issue of all must be the one that kills the most people?

I ask purely to better understand - but I cannot understand why one would target violent crime legislation and the most common cause of death by violent crime?


Red

 

[Wayland]

But we are not a rigid or totalitarian state < Snip

That's a good one.......

 

[Toddy]

And there in lies the rub, they are the most commonly used tool as well.

Domestic knives, i.e. the kitchen knife, is the most frequently used assault weapon, closely followed by that most easily obtained of toolbox staples, the stanley type knife (the scars from this knife are horrific, they literally howk out a piece of flesh which can rarely be re-attached )

Neither of these types of knives can be removed or legalised by licence since they are so much a part of daily life. Or would you have us make dinner and eat using only a spoon ?

The sgian dubh, the dirk and the sgian ochlas are fairly commonly worn as part of our national dress, even I wear the first two at times

There is legislation already in place, and more is clearly under consideration, in the attempts to curb the violence that erupts in our society. I await with interest the next suggestion to come through........

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

That said, ought that person be a 15 year old boy with a known history of gang involvement ?

Or a 45yr old in cammo clothes at a petrol station in Glasgow, with a canoe on the roof ?

Nick

 

[MagiKelly]

proposals to restrict the sale of knives should focus on those knives with no clear domestic purpose

Unfortunately there is no statistics on it but the perception of doctors and police is that the majority of knife deaths are from domestic knife. So if we are to follow the banning logic we should ban domestic knives first.

Plus if we are to go purely on logic the biggest killers in Scotland are heart disease and cancer. So junk food, cigarettes and sunbeds are well ahead of knives on the ban list.

If we want to stick to murder and violence then most of these are aided by alcohol so banning alcohol would reduce crimes and deaths far more.

However, often logic is not the way these things are dealt with.

 

[Toddy]

That's a good one.......

Well yes, but it's true. I ought to have been clearer, just because we proscribe against one type of 'weapon' does not mean that we will do so for all others; non rigid. Non totalitarian, we are allowed to hold differing opinions with no requirement that they must be in line with someone else's view of logic. We complain, we rant and rage, but we don't routinely end up brutalised for our views. Our press is allowed to slag off the government, to complain, to be vociferous in it's verbage. We are actually very fortunate compared to most of the world, even if we do have a problem with knife crime in Scotland .

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toddy]

Or a 45yr old in cammo clothes at a petrol station in Glasgow, with a canoe on the roof ?

Nick

Did you get stopped then?
They have to have a reason, and the suspicion that you might hold up the forecourt and escape by water won't hold

cheers,
M

 

[British Red]

Unfortunately there is no statistics on it but the perception of doctors and police is that the majority of knife deaths are from domestic knife. So if we are to follow the banning logic we should ban domestic knives first.

Plus if we are to go purely on logic the biggest killers in Scotland are heart disease and cancer. So junk food, cigarettes and sunbeds are well ahead of knives on the ban list.

If we want to stick to murder and violence then most of these are aided by alcohol so banning alcohol would reduce crimes and deaths far more.

However, often logic is not the way these things are dealt with.

Couldn't agree more with you there on every point other than, perhaps, there is a difference between killing yourself and killing others.

The quote I made is from the Scottish Govenment Website

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/06/27110255/02566

but it appears to be a policy consultation / discussion.

The sgian dubh, the dirk and the sgian ochlas are fairly commonly worn as part of our national dress, even I wear the first two at times

As for the Sgian dubh / dirk etc. I'm certain that costume versions with plastic non cutting blades could be developed - after all if they are a matter of costume, there is no requirement for them to be functional surely ?

Red

 

[Toddy]

As for the Sgian dubh / dirk etc. I'm certain that costume versions with plastic non cutting blades could be developed - after all if they are a matter of costume, there is no requirement for them to be functional surely ?

Red

We now give children wooden ones to wear and plastic is available for pubs and sporting occasions, but the knives do get used. Mine usually just as I'd use my pocket knife or wm1. It's actually very handy tucked into my sock garter. The dirk I've only used to cut open haggis or meat at a supper.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[spamel]

Surely the instrument is being used by humans to cause harm, so lets' start by banning humans!

 

[Toddy]

Surely the instrument is being used by humans to cause harm, so lets' start by banning humans!

That's really very subtle there, Spam
However, you are right, it's the people causing the problem, unfortunately they are using a tool that literally everyone else uses for daily life, to do it

cheers,
M