Canoeing trip Scandinavia: asking advice

[Wayward_Son]

Hi all!

OP here. First of all, thanks to everyone for your quick replies. I know most of them were probably made out of pure worry for us going on this trip at all but nevertheless we really appreciate your input, help and advice.

We would like to just react to a few things and clear some stuff up. Firstly, we are quite comfortable camping out and have done it often in the Netherlands and other countries. We know how to set up tents, to make fire and all further basic know-how. We have never however gone on this particular kind of trip or have done such a long stretch of moving around and camping.

Like others have said, the area is quite populated and lowland so we won't be dealing with full on wilderness. We have checked the mean temperatures and it ranges between 22 and a little over 10 degrees. Even if it gets to 5 degrees, we have been camping in minus 10 before so I feeWe are quite comfortable camping out and have done it often in the Netherlands and other countries.

Like others have said, the area is quite populated and lowland so we won't be dealing with full on wilderness. We have checked the mean temperatures and it ranges between 22 and a little over 10 degrees. Even if it gets to 5 degrees, we have been camping in minus 10 before so are not very worried about this. Also, as long as we bring good sleeping mats and bags and make sure to appropriate layer clothing we should be able to handle it.

We agree with all of you on the living off the land idea. A special thanks to Nefilim who told us about just missing the prime fishing season. We didn't know that and it is very important info. Therefore we have ditched the idea of "living off the land" and will view any foraging and fishing results as an extra treat. We have decided to bring most of the food along from the start. Seeing as there will be barrels available to stock it (and our bags etc) in, this shouldn't be a problem.

About the paddling itself: we are still doubting whether to take the route we mentioned (90km) or the shorter one of 65 km. This because of possible difficulties due to winds etc and us not being experienced. The shorter route would give us some more leeway with time.

The fact that we only have two weeks to get stuff ready is not really by choice. We booked this trip about 6 months ago but in the meantime have all had to write and complete our theses unfortunately leaving very little to no time to complete the preparations for our trip. Nonetheless, like we said, the area is not full on wilderness and judging from Riven's comment it is very doable and we can actually rent a lot of equipment.

Our last questions would be: what kind of clothes would you bring and how many (fabrics, specific brands or types etc) and what would be the maximum weight of a backpack that you would suggest if we want to go on dayhikes (two guys around 186 cm and two girls around 170 cm and 162 cm). The smallest girl has some back issues like we mentioned but has done a fair amount of camping, hiking and travelling before. Also, what type of bugprotective clothing would you recommend?

Thanks again for all your replies and help. We hope you respect our decision to go and realise from Riven's post (who has already done the exact same thing we are going to do) that it is very doable. Hope to hear from you again!

P.s. we will definitely share some stories and pictures here if we make it out alive

 

[Wayward_Son]

Thanks so much Toddy!

Great to have such a positive vibe here on the forum with so many knowledgeable people wanting to come to our aid.

We will definitely be checking with the rental company to see what they can supply. That will probably decrease our packlist and preparation needs significantly.

We will be sure to check out the Dutch bushcraft forum as well for brand and type advice. Thanks for letting us know about. It would be great if Ahjno could give us some Dutchie advice as well. We will also look around the rest of the forum here and pick up any bits and pieces of advice that could be useful to us.

Will also be posting a trip report and maybe some pictures when we get back.

Cheers!

 

[Toddy]

Links

http://www.bushcraftnederland.nl

and an old thread but it has a lot of the Dutch members discussing things on it. Gives you a bit of a head up for names, etc.,
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28458

cheers,
Toddy

 

[forestwalker]

Clothes: decent pants (cheap; surplus. expensive: Fjällräven et al), a wool sweater (nothing too thick, but not super thin: aim for too warm for the office, but not sufficient on it's own for winter at home) , a jacket (GT rainjacket will work), rainwear (pants+jacket), a beanie. 1-2 t-shirts, wool underwear is nice but overkill, a sunhat+sunglasses, fottwear that will survive getting wet (wellies are popular, but a wool sock in sacrificial running shoes will work), wool socks.

Kit: knife (mora is fine), mosquito lotion, first aid kit. Map and compass.some rope is handy when canoeing. Use heavy duty large trash bags to line the packs to make them waterproof (plus an extra around the sleeping bag). Water bottle, perhaps a filter or chlorine tabs. Fishing kit

Rent tents from the outfitter unless you already have them. Same for trangia stove (there may be a fire ban in the area, the outfitter should know).

Most comunities have a grocery store, so you may be able to stock up on fresh fruit along the way.

 

[nephilim]

Just because prime fishing season is over...doesn't mean you can't fish, it would just be harder as you won't have as many fish in the area. You may be lucky for the odd salmon which would feed 6 people easily as it is a super rich meaty fish. Also available are perch, trout and pike. But they're not as big as the salmon.

I'd recommend you all chip in for a large tent which you can all sleep in. This way you share body heat at night. Under the stars may be romantic, it isn't practical.

Sent from my C6833 using Tapatalk

 

[Bluffer]

Sounds a bit more promising.

One piece of advice, two paddlers in one canoe can be tricky until you get used to each other - they are called 'divorce boats'

So maybe choose the shorter route if the weather is looking windy?

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Some thoughts.

Last year I did a 14km canoe paddle as only my second time in an open canoe. I needed treatment by an Ambulance crew member (Never travel without one, very useful), twice for strain on my wrist from paddling. If you aren't experienced in paddling an open canoe for days on end, you may find you are opening yourselves to injury.

I won't go into any great detail about if you are or are not biting off more than you can chew, others have covered that, however on the kit front.

- Kathmandu in Utrecht are pretty good for their range of kit
- Decathlon at Buijlmer Arena can have useful kit occasionally.
- Not exactly local but I was really impressed with Globetrotter in Köln when I visited in December.
- There is a dump store on liederstraat (I think), in Amsterdam that has some useful stuff, as does the one on the shopping street coming off Dam square.

As to what kit to get. You can buy everything you need for next to very little money, and it will generally survive the trip. HOWEVER. You might not get another trip out of it and you will then end up paying more in the long run. So with that in mind, some thoughts on decent quality kit:

- Sleeping bag - Mountain Hardware Lamina series. I have the Lamina 35 for summer use and Laminina 20 for Winter use. Lovely bags.
- Sleep matt - Exped Synmat 7UL. Wonderful piece of kit, worth it's weight in gold.
- Tarp - Alpkit rig 7 would be my goto choice here
- Mossi nets - you *WILL* want mossie nets and associated repellent, look at the stuff in Kathmandu in Utrecht.
- Stove - Get a trangia, it'll be most cost effective for you.
- Pots - If you want to cook over an open fire, I would look at the Tatonka 1.0L, 1.6L, 2.5L kettle.
- Dry bags - I really like the Alpkit ones, and I believe Alpkit will ship to .nl.

Hopefully this will give you some thing to think about kit wise. Good luck!

Goede reis. Tot ziens.

J

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Our last questions would be: what kind of clothes would you bring and how many (fabrics, specific brands or types etc) and what would be the maximum weight of a backpack that you would suggest if we want to go on dayhikes (two guys around 186 cm and two girls around 170 cm and 162 cm). The smallest girl has some back issues like we mentioned but has done a fair amount of camping, hiking and travelling before. Also, what type of bugprotective clothing would you recommend?

Clothingwise I would suggest you look at the stuff from Decathlon over at Bijlmer Arena. It'll be the most cost effective for you. A few things to consider:

- DO NOT WEAR JEANS! I cannot emphasise this enough, if you fall in, jeans tend to constrict round your legs and make swimming really hard.
- How many sets to take is upto you, I normally work on the basis of 3 full sets, + enough underwear for a week. This works out as wear one, wash one, one spare. If you are confident about how fast your clothing will dry, then you can get away with 2 sets.

On the matter of how heavy for a day pack. That is a good question. It depends. Personally for a day hike if my pack weighs more than 4kg, including water, I've screwed up somewhere. If I am hiking over night, then before I add food, water, and fuel, then my pack is about 5-6kg.

Something I realised I forgot from my previous post about kit: Sawyer Mini Filter. Get one of these per person, it's one of those items that's worth it's weight in gold.

J

 

[forestwalker]

And with the mossie nets: make sure it is the kind with super-small holes.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I was reading this, and thinking that some of the description sounded a lot like StoraLe, but the names mentioned didn't mean anything to me/were not familiar. Now that I have looked at it on the map, it appears that this is where you are talking about. We did a week of paddling on Stora Le using the canoe rental from Canodal in Ed in May, and I have been there twice before, in April and September.

I posted threads with photos here:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62240

and here;
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132250

When I was at Canodal, there was a sign that stated there would be a ban on fires outside of designated areas, so stoves are the way to go.
Fish for fun, not for food.


I have traveled with Truenorth Outdoors on a number of canoe expeditions and will re-post the advice that Jed gave us.


Personal Canoeing Kit (Wilderness Tripping)

Wilderness travel by canoe is remarkably hard on personal clothing and equipment. Mud, rain, tree branches, thorns, granite, fire and food all conspire to soak it stain it, rip it, melt it, singe it and generally wear it out as quickly as possible. Only the toughest and most versatile clothing will survive long enough to become “old favourites”. So here are some pointers to success:

Designer labels tell you more about the price than the function of the clothing. Farm shops, workwear shops and Countrywide, however, sell a whole range of tough clothing that is really inexpensive.
Some of the less “Gucci” labels stocked by Millets and Blacks are great value for money. Look out for Peter Storm, Regatta, Gellert and Eurohike.
Minimise, Minimise, then minimise again (Consider the wolf, ask Jed!)
Read the care label and make sure you read the textile bits. In brief:

THE BAD GUYS!

Cotton, Cotton Rich, or worse 100% Cotton: “In the hills cotton kills” “On the river cotton makes you shiver”. It gets wet, stays wet, binds and abrades and when wet will cause you to lose body heat 9 times faster than bare skin. True!! However, in mix 65% polyester to 35% cotton it is comfortable and versatile as warm weather camp gear for shirt and trousers. For paddling, however, and from autumn to spring avoid cotton. For very good reason the Canadians who are known for their plain speaking refer to it as “death cloth”.
Linen, see all above for cotton and some. It also gets dirty and crumpled quickly and is ridiculously hard to wash and dry. It shrinks and loses shape. The pits!
Bamboo - viscose, feels lovely next to the skin, tends not to smell bad after a couple of days' wear, but absolutely never dries out. Slower than cotton.
Wool, this is a tough one. Wool is warm-ish when wet and won’t melt but it is “hydrophilic”, never dries without a heat source and weighs a ton! It doesn’t get niffy as some of the man-made fabrics do and super thin long sleeved vest and long johns are great, but all in all it has been superseded by fleece. Also wool is great for socks.
Leather, it is hopeless as an outer layer of clothing, hot in summer, cold in winter, never dries or if force dried becomes a suit of armour.


THE GOOD GUYS

Polypropylene, this is great for next to the skin wear on wet trips, it wicks away moisture in seconds and dries fantastically fast. Most often seen as “Lifa”, the close fitting, blue, long sleeve T shirt and long johns with the white stripes on the sleeve by Helly Hanson. Look for cheaper versions they are available. You can rinse it in the river or loch and put it straight back on after wringing it quickly and you’re good to go. Also makes excellent liner socks for first rate moisture management. It does get niffy, however, this is a small price to pay for first rate performance when paddling in chilly weather. Some versions now are antimicrobial which makes them perfect.
Polyester, this is the best all-rounder. As fleece, Polartech, or other micro fibres it is hard to beat for thermal properties. It’s tough, light, cheap, warm when wet and is “hydrophobic” which means it hates water and dries really quickly. As “Coolmax” it is more pricey but will keep you warm and dry.
Pertex, a finely woven, windproof, shower-proof material that makes a fantastic garment when combined with a plain fleece inner layer. Buffalo brand is brilliant but again look out for cheaper versions on the market e.g. Mardale or Trax. This is the mainstay of wilderness canoeing gear in changeable weather.
Acrylic, poor man’s wool. Brilliant! Cheap as chips, warm, tough, dries quickly. Great as a spare jumper. Brilliant as fast drying sox.


CLOTHING HINTS

Hats – You need 2, a broad brimmed one to keep the sun off your nose and ears and to stop the rain running down your face and back, it will also hold your bug net away from your face; a woolly one (Acrylic / fleece) for warmth in the evening.

Wet Weather jacket and trousers – You do not need to spend a fortune on “membrane” technology. Vinyl, P U coated nylon will not, like some brand names, stop working after a few days and a quick shake gets the wet off. Go for cheap and cheerful but with taped seams. Also go for a baggy fit so you can sling it on over your BA (NOT in white water!) and it allows the air to circulate and thereby reduce condensation.

Socks – Merino wool / Coolmax mix are fantastic but can be pricey. Acryllic and nylon work a treat, are tough and dry really quickly. Wool, comfy but oh so slow drying. Cotton, useless!

Footwear – Everyone has an opinion on this subject, but a good combination is: either wellies, combat boots or even “muckers” from a riding or farm shop they’re cheap, flexible but waterproof, tough enough for the woods and have a proper heel block to save sliding on the portage. River sandals for when its hot (beware sunburn!) and or trainers in the evenings to let your feet breathe. If it’s buggy wear sandals with socks (you might be mistaken for a vicar and be asked to say grace at supper – but a small price to pay for itch-free feet!)

Gloves – Gardening gloves are great around camp when sorting the fire collecting wood and avoiding bugs. Sore hands are a pain to paddle with.

KIT IDEAS

Plate – Hard plastic or wood could well be in little bits after the first portage or someone drops a boat on your pack so go for a bowl, stainless steel dog bowl or 20cm balti dish, either is ideal.
Mug – Again, simple steel mug perfect. Thermal mugs are OK but can be a tad fragile and hard to keep hygienic you also have to wait for your tea to cool, how crazy is that?! Avoid aluminium it will burn your lip! Wooden kuksa, lovely, step on it once – finito!
Spoon – Stainless steel is ideal, it will cut food in your bowl and is hygienic; I never bother with a fork and eating knife and have never missed them. Your choice!
Torch – LED head torches are compact, lightweight, ridiculously long battery life and brilliant for finding your way to the loo at night or reading in bed. They needn’t be expensive look for a “Carp-lighter” in your local fishing shop.
Candles – low tech, effective, stick a stumpy fat one or a couple of T lights in your gear.
Loo paper – Individual packs of tissues great, one pack per day for all needs. Bog roll; drop it once in wet heather and its sphagnum time!
Books, - Do take your journal and a book
Fishing gear – Hand lines or a compact telescopic rod and spinners.


Remember if in doubt, leave it out!
Jed

 

[C_Claycomb]

I have done well with 65/35 poly/cotton Craghopper Kiwi trousers , even when it has rained in Scotland, but 100% synthetic do dry faster, and are lighter, but often not as tough.

You will find that your hands dry out, you will tend to get cracks up around the nails. I take a little screw top twin container sold for contact lenses and put some unscented hand cream in one chamber and some Vaseline in the other. The hand cream is used at night and the vaseline during the day, just around the nails. Worked well on this last trip, didn't get any splits, which is a first.

As for paddling techniques, there are some good instructional videos on the net. I watched some of the Bill Mason ones put out by the Canadian National Film Board:
https://www.nfb.ca/explore-all-directors/bill-mason/

There may be others on youtube, but Bill Mason's stuff is very good, long enough to learn from, not just little sound-bytes.

You may also get some good info from Song of the Paddle forum.

If you get more than a shower of rain, and are making camp, a 4x3m tarp, and knowing how to rig it for shelter, will make life MUCH more comfortable. Jed also had things to say about tarps, and we have used one on every trip we have been on. His notes are reproduced here:
http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/s...up-your-tarp-in-different-configurations.html

Knots
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78600