Brythonic counting - yint tint tither nither bumf...

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.

trekkingnut

Settler
Jul 18, 2010
680
1
Wiltshire
To me it does seem that the "experts" are only making educated guesses about the language. Through trace evidence such as place names and modern forms of Brythonic languages. Britain is a land of mongrels if you want to put it blunt there has been so much movement of peoples that I doubt very much any expert has the definitive answer on language origins. One question can a dead language be truly revived or will it always just be a modern interpretation that noone can contradict because it was dead as a spoken language?

If you want experts in sheep counting speak to a New Zealander. Saw one on countryfile once with the hobby farmer presenter and she pretty much counted up the flock in a couple of seconds in a field. As far as counting goes is a base 10 system or a base 5 or whatever base any quicker? I know we are all "trained" to use a base 10 counting system but is that really the fastest one? Once learned could another base number be faster? Afterall the Yan, Tan, Tethera counting system seems to be base 5. I suppose the one you're used to is the fastest for you.

a lot of tribes round the world ive worked with use this system where they count to twelve on each hand, so 24 in total. they work with their thumb and count the joints rather than individual fingers. so thumb on top fleshy bit of index finger is 1, second fleshy bit is 2, third fleshy bit is three, thumb, top fleshy bit, second finger is four. etc. this is something that i often do because you can count a lot more with one hand that way.
 

trekkingnut

Settler
Jul 18, 2010
680
1
Wiltshire
It is worth noting that the Welsh "U" is pronounced "Y" so "Un" is said (roughly) "Een" - so the similarity with the others is more obvious spoken than read!

interesting, catalan for 19 is actually dinou. similar but wrong number!!! haha!

also, monday and tuesday in catalan and gaidhlig are almost identical.
 

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
70
Fife
Hi Treckingnut,
Inbhir and Aber are basically the same word and of the same/similar meaning (b-v chiasma) and I believe there are a number of examples where the Gaelic has superseded the Brythonic. There are also places with the Brythonic prefix Aber in places where Gaelic has been the predominant language for long centuries.

I'd agree with you that in my experience there is nothing stand-offish or snobbish about the Gaels.
The two ladies from Pennan I spoke of were said to be deeply self-conscious of their native tongue to the extent that they whispered to each other for fear of being overheard. This could well explain their feeling somewhat inferior when attending the Mod, as they had spent their lives in the belief that they were doing something wrong in speaking their Mother Tongue. (A family story relates that my grandmother, a Gael, was made to stand in the school playground with a sign round her neck saying that she'd been speaking the Devil's language.)

The two ladies tongue was heavily interspersed with English and Gaelic words and phrases but also with components of neither Gaelic or English origin. They also recorded words which their parents and grandparents used but they were unsure of the meaning. I find that profoundly sad, and it reminds me of a study of recordings made by the last speaker of a Native American tongue. When his friendly researcher played back a recording, the old man's dog started wagging his tail, sitting and rolling over, making the dog the last living thing to understand the spoken word.

A friend of mine in his early 40's and brought up in Dunshalt in Fife says he only learned to speak English when he started school. He doesn't understand why some of the numbers he remembers from 1 to 10 are neither Gaelic nor English! Next time I see him I'll ask him to write them down phonetically.

ps; Which "court" and when are you speaking of when you say that Gaelic was the language of the court? It's only relatively recently that the power base moved to Edinburgh. Prior to that the Scottish power base was situated in the Fife/Angus area where Gaelic has never been spoken. If you're referring to the Dalriada, then the only entries of Cionat or Alpin in the Irish Annals are of Eastern Brythonic origin, MacAlpin, his father and grandfather, and it looks as though the Pict married into the Gaelic line rather than the other way round. Kinna smacks of the contortions of an aristocracy extending their territories but it may well have been the only way to prevent a bloodbath, something Oor Kenneth was only too familiar with.

In more modern times, if you've read Stevenson's "Weir of Hermiston" or "The Strange Case of Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde" and are familiar with the story of Deacon Brody and Lord Braxfield. the Lord Advocate of Scotland ("Ah'll no keep ye hangin aboot long, ma man!"; "Aye, ye'r a fine, braw wise young cheil and will be nane the war for a hangin!"), mad as a hatter, senile and irremovable from power, you'll know that Braxfield, and many others, refused to hear evidence in anything other than the Scots Tongue. Stevenson said that 20 years after his death, the name of Braxfield could still silence a room!

Cheers.
 
Last edited:

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
70
Fife
Southern West Scotland was known in the early medieval as Wallia, that part of Wales that is in Scotland. The original intent of the word Wales was to convey native, original.

>>There are places in Europe where variations of the name survives; Walech, Valez, etc: which appear to relate to speakers of Latin tongues like Retro-Romanische in Switzerland. It is taken to signify difference, or foreign. Was it a word introduced from Latin or one introduced to Latin?

Of interest here is the legend of the Votodini of Traprain Law in East Lothian, the epic poem of which survives only in the Welsh "Gogodin". I believe they're thought to have made a desperate attempt to join their kinfolk in what is now Wales and died to a man in the attempt.<<

Language flows as the people, but little pieces of the old ones are part of even our modern lives. >>Most profound!<<

Thon Welsh scholar sounds a bit contentious, with his own private interpretation.
>>Aye, it's a bit late in the day to get heated about.<<

Cheers, Toddy

ps; I have no idea what happened with the post here, but I had to go back and edit in >>my speech<<.

Cheers,

Bill.
 
Last edited:

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
70
Fife
Liam (Miyagi), I can't reply to your PM mate, as your inbox is full and I keep getting a knock back!

Cheers,

Bill.
 

Miyagi

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 6, 2008
2,298
5
South Queensferry
Liam (Miyagi), I can't reply to your PM mate, as your inbox is full and I keep getting a knock back!

Cheers,

Bill.

Sorry Bill, sorted now.

Firefox playing up and doing my nut in!

Just catching up with the e-world - as you do...

Cheers,

Liam.
 

Miyagi

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 6, 2008
2,298
5
South Queensferry
On the internet I take part in a couple of forums, but none of them have even come close to BcUK.

I've learned a lot from many folk on the web, but BcUK never ceases to amaze me.

This is the most interesting thread I've ever read on any internet forae.

Languages fascinate me, even the simple change in accent between villages/towns a few miles from each other is a wonder - not to mention the different accents "within" a town; Morningside, Pilton or Kelvinside, Easterhouse etc etc.

Brythonic counting I've never heard of, but some of the numbers ring a bell from my childhood.

I grew up speaking English, Latin and Arabic (due to schooling and my late Father's job).

What surprised me when I joined up in the 80's was that; there were laddies with me that couldn't read and write! (Anyone remember "Move On"??? tv prog in the 70's?).

There were also other laddies that spoke mainly the Gaelic and whose English was very, very limited.

I'm absolutely hooked on this thread - keep it coming.

Many thanks,

Liam
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,999
4,652
S. Lanarkshire
I know some Gaels who are terribly uppity about their 'correct' pronunciation of 'their' language. An elderly lady I knew, who'd grown up near loch Lomond, found that the accent she used in her native Gaelic, had her roundly snubbed by Gaelic speakers from some of the islands, they didn't believe she was a native speaker; there's always the few holier than thou patronising folks. Incredibly off puting. Thankfully now that the Gaelic schools are well established in the Lowlands that attitude is fading rapidly.
Tbh the greatest limitation on the understanding and spread of Gaelic is simply the way it's written.
We can all read French, or Spanish, we can even make sense of Text :rolleyes: yet ask any non Gaelic speaker to read Gaelic and it just doesn't happen.

Welsh ? It sings :D Apart from a Welsh speaking uncle my only experience was at the Moot a couple of years ago.......basically a visit to the A & E at Bridgend was difficult enough with our Scottish accents, but trying to explain that the cause was an Iron Age sickle had the little Welsh nurse looking for help. Off she went and came back with a doctor.....a Chinese doctor who made sense for all of us :D

The last time Gaelic was the language of the courts Constantine was on the throne :rolleyes: and Latin was the language of the church.
If you look at the surviving documents from the Scottish Court the language is a real mixture. There's a peculiar latinese that's used in many of them, showing that even the language of church and diplomacy was influenced by the indigenous speech.
Even the Declaration of Arbroath shows the anomally, and the bishops who dictated it were learned men.
http://www.nas.gov.uk/downloads/declarationArbroath.pdf
The Scots used in the rest of them is not some dialect of English, it is a different language with some shared vocabulary.
East coast heartland Scotland doesn't have many Viking loan words, though Caithness certainly does. Strangely the Doric of the North East is very similar to the Doric of the South West. Geneally look for the trade links and there will be shared words. Kirk, dreich, and the like, are shared across the North Sea with our continental neighbours, not the southern ones. We have already discussed the French association with many of our cooking terms, but what about the farming and fishing words ?
We know from Columba's visit to the Pictish court of King Bridei that the Gaelic and Latin he knew wasn't enough for him to be understood. He needed a monk from the local area to act as a translator. That's showing a very early divide in the Gaelic of Gael and Pict, mid 600's.

Sorry Pango, not much help with the counting this, is it ? :D

cheers,
M
 

trekkingnut

Settler
Jul 18, 2010
680
1
Wiltshire
there is the problem that each hebridean island pronounces things differently and the nearer you get to ireland the more irish it becomes... for example, where i am from, we say co for both how and where, but it also means dog... so it depends on the context, further north they will say ciamar for how, we use that sometimes as well. just depends on the context.

mainstream modern irish for how are you is conas ata tu? (it has co at the front) donegall irish up in the north is caide ma ata tu? and scots gaidhlig officially is ciamar a tha thu? so you can see the progressive similarity. But people do think its weird when i say co instead of ciamar.... and i get snubbed for that.... just the way it is i guess... its like people from down south uk taking the mick out of north uk accents and vice versa... it will always happen.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,999
4,652
S. Lanarkshire
Scots. I frequently work in Glasgow, lots of Gaels there :) see Galgael.org

Tbh I never noticed that the islanders nearer Ireland sounded any more Irish than the folks from Ayrshire do :dunno:

cheers,
Toddy
 

trekkingnut

Settler
Jul 18, 2010
680
1
Wiltshire
hebrideans def speak with a very different twang, right down south west its a very light accent, almost ulster scots. but i was talking about the gaidhlig itself rather than english.

I have been to church in glashu in gaidhlig. was lovely. they have a great website where you can listen to hyms and psalms in gaidhlig from glashu.
 

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
70
Fife
Glyn77, I might have known Jake Thackery would have something to say on the matter. No-one like him for a sparkle in one eye, a tear in the other and a knee in the nuts! Brilliant!

"Sorry Pango, not much help with the counting this, is it ?" Toddy.
No Toddy, but digression is an exotic spice!

I'm afraid my Gaelic is restricted to slim pickings from here and there, like, "Tha a mheanbh chuileag dona nochd.", and what's pertinent to my survival, mainly from maps. I remember well the epiphany of understanding what "Lon Dhubh" meant when I wandered, hands in pockets, into an area of the Monadh Liath in a fog. Another example that comes to mind was one night when I realise I'd put my wee tent up on what, according to the map, was named something like "Sidhe Bràigh". And no, I didn't get much sleep!

Not being a Gaelic speaker, I wouldn't have encountered the kind of snobbery you mention. Then again, you won't encounter much of that in pubs between Stornoway and Kintyre, or amongst the Haakers and Tinks I've been drawn to at events like The Berry Fields o' Blair. Although I have heard Tinks lamenting the Haaker's aristocratic attitudes! :lmao:

Keep it coming, please!

I'm off to listen to some more pearls from Jake Thackery.

Cheers.
 
Last edited:

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE