Boy Scouts USA getting eaten alive

[Billy-o]

Beset by sex abuse cases, the Boy Scouts of America organization is heading into bankruptcy ... see some of the hourly rates lawyers are charging. Talk about feeding off the carcase!

‘Staggering’ Legal Fees in Boy Scouts Bankruptcy Case

As the Boy Scouts of America goes through a contentious bankruptcy, dozens of lawyers are working on the case. Many are charging more than $1,000 an hour.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Nice65]

First place I ever saw an actual Vulture was in the US. The allegations are disheartening enough, but the filth that feed on the litigious aspect are disgusting.

 

[Robson Valley]

Some churches are no better. I feel so sorry for the shocking traumatization of all the victims.

 

[Laurentius]

The only winners are the lawyers. The question is on balance whether scouting has been a good thing or not? Anything to do with kids attracts its predators however it is not the institution that is wrong but the safeguarding.

 

[Billy-o]

On the other hand, there is this:

In Rebuke to N.R.A., Federal Judge Dismisses Bankruptcy Case

The N.R.A. filed for bankruptcy this year as it sought to end run regulatory action in New York, but a judge rejected the strategy.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Paul_B]

The worry I have is that it reinforces the views of some people in the UK that believe the UK scouting movement has more of a safeguarding problem than it does. IME, as limited as it is, UK scouting has sorted out a lot of the safeguarding issues many, many years ago. Certainly well before sporting clubs like football. I do not know what happened with the American body but I reckon the UK body is a totally different culture based heavily on safeguarding.

It's never going to be 100% safe nowhere is for kids including schools but it's got the steps in place to reduce risks. As a parent of a cub (never been to a cub meeting because of covid) I had to have an enhanced DBS check done on me before I could volunteer or simply help if needed on beaver evenings my son was at. Whereas a local football coach uses his son and I think his daughter or friend's daughter to help with coaching sessions. I doubt you've got a below 18yo kid dbs checked.

Whatever has happened with scouting in USA it seems heavily negligent of the leadership over a long period of time, to me at least. Safeguarding was one issue that's been known about for so long in UK scouting. Sad all round.

 

[Oliver G]

I've recently signed up as an assistant scout leader and I must say that the safeguarding is second to none, it's really hammered into the culture that we're there to look after the kids and the channels of communication if we think there is an issue are very clear.

It surprises me that the US Scouting is so different to the UK scouting but I think as cultures the US is diverting from the UK more swiftly than we think.

 

[TeeDee]

I can't help but feel that now having mixed sex scout troops is only going to potentially increase margins for abuse of power via inherently predatory individuals.

I appreciate some will suggest ( or believe ) Boys scouting is enhanced by having mixed troops but I'm not sure if that opinion was formulated by them or gathered via a consensus of the Boys in the various Scouting Troops.

 

[Oliver G]

I think there's two separate issues; having mixed units may increase the risk of predatory individuals but I haven't seen any data on it. The other is the mixed units from a quality of scouting point of view, from what I've seen it's much easier when there are mixed units as the girls tend to temper the boys behaviour and calm things down a bit so they get more out of it, quite how to measure quality of scouting though is beyond me.

On an aside I did 4 years in the OTC while at uni to earn some extra beer tokens, for 2 of the years we had separate platoons for males and females, those were by far the worst years in terms of training and morale, too often the boys would be acting like morons and the girls would wind each other up with complaints. Mixed units are definitely the way to go for a learning environment.

 

[TeeDee]

I think there's two separate issues; having mixed units may increase the risk of predatory individuals but I haven't seen any data on it. The other is the mixed units from a quality of scouting point of view, from what I've seen it's much easier when there are mixed units as the girls tend to temper the boys behaviour and calm things down a bit so they get more out of it, quite how to measure quality of scouting though is beyond me.

On an aside I did 4 years in the OTC while at uni to earn some extra beer tokens, for 2 of the years we had separate platoons for males and females, those were by far the worst years in terms of training and morale, too often the boys would be acting like morons and the girls would wind each other up with complaints. Mixed units are definitely the way to go for a learning environment.

Just my opinion but there is a lot of difference between the age of Scouting / Guides and all the related things going on as opposed to what I would hope to be mature OTC candidates - But I appreciate your experience is directly informed whilst mine is speculation.

I Just think if the bastion of Scouting is now mixed then so should the Guide movement and if Guides need to adapt and change their curriculum to retain females that don't want to do the generic 'girl centric ' activities then they should adapt to change

. That surely would be fair in terms of equality.


I'm sure that there maybe as many young developing Boys interested in generic girl activities as there are young developing Girls interested in generic male activities.

 

[Oliver G]

There is a little difference in age, the explorers are 14-18 and OTC guys tend to be 18 - 22. It'll be interesting to hear from other scout leaders what their experience is when you get girls in the sections.

I think it's an interesting one for the guides, the're a sister organisation but not directly related, as it they do not fall under the same management. For an organisation to be forced by rules/law to change because a comparable organisation has changed I don't think is right.

What may happen though is social pressure if guides can't maintain numbers because they are being siphoned off into scouts, this would then result in the guides changing tack, either by letting boys in or changing their programmes.

I think at the younger ages the activities the cubs and beavers do are fairly genderless but as you get into scouts / explorers the activities are perceived to be male oriented.

Pivoting back to the original post though, I'm glad we have a fairly robust legal system, I think if the UK scouting ever got as bad as the US scouting it would collapse from societal pressure before financial pressure.

 

[Broch]

What may happen though is social pressure if guides can't maintain numbers because they are being siphoned off into scouts, this would then result in the guides changing tack, either by letting boys in or changing their programmes.

I know the guides are making a bit of fuss about this, but I'm not convinced it is true or logical. The kind of girls that are joining the Scout troops because they want to do more 'outdoorsy' things instead of the junior WI things (excuse the generalisation, I use it purposefully to define a difference) are not the girls that would have joined the Guides in the first place; or if they did they would not have stayed long. I think it's just a convenient way for the Guides management to blame other events for their dropping numbers.

I know there are far more blokes on here than women, but I find it interesting that (as far as I've seen) there are no Guide leaders here that could put us right - I may be wrong.

 

[The Lord Poncho]

My Explorer Unit was all male until about 15 years ago, when it got its first cohort of girls joining. Overnight, it made a huge, very discernible change - overwhelmingly for the good. We currently have about a 60/40 ratio of boys to girls, and the dynamic is fabulous. The girls bring a maturity with them that the boys are (on the most part) keen to emulate, and frankly, some of my strongest Scouts have been girls. Not to mention that some of the most valuable learning for life from being in a boundaried/guided group situation is in terms of social interaction - and with teenagers especially, having a mixed sex group is very valuable. I was one of those scout leaders in the 90's who was concerned when the original consultation came round from the scout assn about opening it up to girls - and like everyone else at the time was worried about it dumbing down and imapcting the programme. I'm very pleased to say that I and most other naysayers have been 100% conclusively proved wrong....

 

[Winnet]

Scouting has accepted females into the youth side of the movement since 1976. That gives 45 years of mixed packs/troops/units. This is far longer than most people realise.

Having been involved in Scouting for 13 years I would agree that Having mixed groups is far better than single sex groups.

G

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[Tengu]

Why wasnt I told that?

I would have been far happier as a Scout.

 

[Silverclaws2]

Myself as someone seeking to return to scouting after a thirty year absence ( I have been an ASL), I have through obvious interest taken a keen interest in observing the movement as a whole, to consider whilst the British Scouting Movement has advanced far beyond my expectations, for me to be ' encouraged' to return, the BSA appears to be in danger of being washed away in the tide of progress.

Why that is happening is because as ever, kids are not their parents or grand parents to describe a need for that that wishes to be successful to reflect the beliefs and morals of the emerging generations. The British Scout Movement, from what I have thus far seen at least on paper has, the BSA has not, well at least not without a fight of which then brings in the subject of costly lawyers and the BSA hierarchy with access to association funds have not stinted in that respect.

One of the changes in the British Scout Movement I have observed, to cheer is the changed attitude towards religion, for sure what's behind much of the BSA travails is the antiquated education the dominant religion has endeared.

And my VSU of the mid nineteen eighties was mixed sex, for myself to wholly believe one cannot generate respect for one another if folk are kept apart from each other.

 

[Silverclaws2]

Why wasnt I told that?

I would have been far happier as a Scout.

Yes, my partner also, an ex GG, of whom was recently gutted to learn the Venture Scouts had been mixed sex since 1976.

Incidentally the UK world Membership emblem of which featured a white ( now silver) Fleur de lis on a purple background, I think,though it has been cited the purple related to Royal patronage, I think the decision to describe a purple background,described an early intention to make UK scouting mixed sex, for sure the colour purple can be the result of two other colours merged in equal proportions.

 

[Silverclaws2]

I think at the younger ages the activities the cubs and beavers do are fairly genderless but as you get into scouts / explorers the activities are perceived to be male oriented.

And that is what hinders progress and indeed human evolution; perception as opposed to practice, where of perception that hinders progress one must examine from where that perception originated to understand if one has been conditioned by forces external into working for those forces.

 

[Stew]

Scouting has accepted females into the youth side of the movement since 1976. That gives 45 years of mixed packs/troops/units. This is far longer than most people realise.

Having been involved in Scouting for 13 years I would agree that Having mixed groups is far better than single sex groups.

G

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

I think it should be pointed out that 1976 was only ventures. It was 1991 for all other sections - I remember it happening though had to look up the date. (I knew ‘76 wasn’t right for scouts as I wasn’t born then)

 

[Tengu]

I never got that high.