Boots for skis AND crampons?

[Beardy]

Hi all,

Last winter I found myself in Norway and Iceland for a time, and managed to get (tentatively!) started in cross country skiing - lots still to learn but I am looking forward to the next snowy season when I can work on it!

In January I also found myself in Scotland, on an intro-to-winter-mountaineering course. First time strapping on crampons and ice axe, building a snow hole and all that, and had a great time and want to take that further too.

The thing is though, the two disciplines seem to demand pretty different kit. Although oddly I ended up with plastic boots for the hills and leather boots for the skiing, I am looking into kit for next winter (whilst it's hopefully cheap in the warmer months!) and finding that kit is pretty much single purpose. That may be fine if you know the area and the snow conditions 100%, live close by there or something, know exactly what you want to do and go off for a day to do it, but what if you have a less specific scenario in mind?

What if you intend crossing varied terrain on a multi day trip for example: is there a pair of boots that are compatible with both ski bindings and crampons?

Now I know there are various things that blur the lines, such as climbing skins and mini ally crampons that will fit either side of your skis, and no doubt there is a plastic mountaineering boot somewhere that is compatible with a particular type of ski; but I am wondering if there is a general use mountain boot out there, something like a B2 boot, that has some way of locking into a cross country ski binding as well as having the more usual spikes strapped to it?

Otherwise, the only solution I could see would be to either carry 2 pairs of boots (not going to be fun considering the weight of all the rest of the kit I would be lugging up and down the place, also more pricey), or restricting yourself to only one type of terrain/mode of transport (quite limiting I would have thought?).

P.S. I know I could have included snowshoes as another thing to need to be able to fit into but I gather they are usually simply strapped on rather than using a particular binding/bracket like skis and crampons - am I right in thinking snowshoes accept pretty much any boot?

If any more experienced oversnow travellers could point me in the right direction, I'd be very grateful...

Cheers,

Beardy

 

[EdS]

you want ski touring or ski mountaineering boots rather than cross country. Only about 3 places in the Uk that do them.

Give this place a ring and have a talk to Andy or email them:
http://shop.backcountryuk.com/ski-boots-mens-411-c.asp

Scarpa do some - I can fit my Black Diamond Seracs to mine

 

[Beardy]

Cheers for the steer. Snooping around ski mountaineering kit though, it looks like a lot of it is like downhill (Alpine?) skiing with modifications made for walking uphill first, not like Nordic skiing much at all...

Am I right in thinking that in ski mountaineering, the object is to climb your side of the mountain and ski down the far side?

As I guess that would explain the plastic boots that look to have a lot in common with downhill, fixed-heel ski boots, since you would be doing a lot of downhill, just using your legs rather than the ski lift first... I guess this sort of boot could have a lot in common with ice climbing boots, but I have not given ice climbing a shot yet and was looking more at generalist mountain boots (Scarpa Manta, Raichle All Degrees) than anything like the plastic Scarpa Vegas I managed to borrow last time!

I think part of the problem for me is describing just what I'm imagining these to be used for, there seem to be a lot of sub-disciplines within skiing (Backcountry? Alpine Touring? Telemark? What does it all mean?!) and each much have it's own little nuances.

If I said I was intending to zoom down the side of a mountain wearing fabric and leather boots, I would be pretty suicidal (I have gone downhill skiing with fixed heel plastic boots before, but it's not my prime interest for the future). I was thinking something a lot more akin to the Nordic skis and boots I managed to borrow in Norway (Madshus made). They were pretty much regular leather boots, apart from obviously the bar at the front toe to fit into the binding (NNN?). If anything they had less ankle support than typical hiking or mountain boots.

I wasn't planning on using the skis for steep slopes per se as you would with fixed heel skis and plastic boots, but for the (relatively) flattish bits in between hills or on the tops, or just in flattish country more generally when the object of the trip isn't to grab any peaks. The downhill bits of the mountain, down from the summit, would be done in crampons or just boots (as you would in summer, or in winter without skis) rather than by skiing. By having one pair of boots compatible with crampons and a ski binding, you wouldn't be trapped into only doing mountains or only cross country skiing if you were in mixed terrain. It would also mean carrying less kit than if you were to take both mountain boots and ski boots, and be cheaper too.

I know bindings for snowshoes and even long distance ice skates exist that you simply strap into with your regular boots - no need to buy a specialised snowshoeing or skating boot that isn't compatible with anything else. I guess my question is, is there a ski, binding and boot combination out there that will let me do relatively flattish cross country stuff (Nordic I think, but I usually get these disciplines mixed up!) with mountain boots?

 

[EdS]

Ski touring boots have a ski and articulated walk position. The bindings that go with them can be unfastened at the rear to allow the foot to move similar to Nordic with only the front fastened. With this set up you can do steep uphill,steep down hill and gentle/flat bits in between.

If you want to go Nordic you could try a pair of C1 walking crampons - they might work.

From what you describe Alpine Ski touring sound your best bet.

 

[Beardy]

Are Alpine ski touring, ski touring and ski mountaineering different disciplines, or variations on a theme? I do like the idea of a binding that can be fastened or unfastened at the heel. When starting out with the NNN boots I found it okay on the flat, okay once going on a (gentle!) downhill bit, but that moment between the two just when you stop moving under your own steam and begin to slide was when I tripped up, a lot! I had never had that problem with fixed heel downhill before, and I ended up falling over a lot more with the Nordic boots than I ever have with the plastics. I've a feeling that if I could lock in the heel before the downhill bit, things would be a lot more stable - the only difference then would be in the material of the boot I would have thought, leather vs plastic.

Can I ask, the steep uphill you mention as part of ski touring, is that with skis on (skins or ski crampons?), or wearing crampons, carrying your skis? Can ski touring boots work as plastic double-layer mountaineering/ice climbing boots do? I couldn't find any ski touring boots made from fabric or leather, no surprise what with the steep downhill bits.

And, has anyone tried Silvretta bindings? I googled about boots with ski and crampon compatibility, it turned up a review with this phot in it, do you think mountain boots on skis are probably okay for the relatively flat bits (like leather Nordic boots), or am I way off the mark with this?

 

[EdS]

alpine touring and ski touring are the same, ski mountaineering is similar but includes climbing as well - basically, touring is going from A to B in high alpine areas with some scrambling while ski mountaineering is skiing in and then climbing. Ski mountaineering boots will take C3 crampons.

The steep uphill is skinning / ski cramponing rather than carrying.

If you want a Nordic type boots look for a backcountry Nordic boots like the Scarpa T4.

To be honest, that is a boot the end of my knowledge - I'm not really a full bore ski, but several of my friends are. Best bet give Backcountry a ring and discuss.

 

[johnboy]

Hi,

From memory you can get an adaptor or binding that will accept a plastic mountaineering boot such as a Scarpa Vega or Koflach. These boots will allow you to fit a variety of crampons.

The problem is fundamentally that what makes a good ski boot and a good climbing boot are a bit different so you'll end up with a compromise specifically for skiing if you're using a plastic mountaineering boot for skiing.

Likewise if you ran with a pair of leather touring style ski boots then you can get an articulated crampon with straps that will likely fit, something like the Black Diamond Contact but you'll need to be aware of the limitations of this type of set up for climbing.

Just avoid trying to strap a ridged 'foot fang' onto a bendy leather boot

Not sure if any of that is any real help.

I'd take my climbing boots into see the touring ski folk and see what they have on offer.

HTH

Cheers

John

 

[wildrover]

The Canadian Military use this binding with their winter boots.

http://www.hummocks.net/hummocks_en/

Don't really know how well the preform as a "skiing " binding.
They will be durable tho' and looks like they will fit most winter boots

 

[Beardy]

Thanks fellas!

Off to do some homework on bindings and various skiing styles, it's all a bit confusing Lucky I've got a while before the snow comes again, eh!

Will pop back in when I figure out what I'm aiming for...

Cheers

Beardy

 

[Beardy]

Well, thought I'd give you a bit of an update. The more I looked at skis and bindings and the various different flavours of skiing, the more I realised it's actually a pretty specialised thing with a lot of different kit for different disciplines, not all of it compatible and not all of it suited to all climes or activities. Probably not going to be fastening spikes to Telemark boots or trekking far in plastic touring boots. And ski bindings for mountaineering boots, while they do exist, seem to come with a disclaimer that you can't expect the same sort of performance as you're used to, and not to go around snapping off ankles and such.

Anyhoo, with that in mind, I thought snowshoes could be a better do-it-all option for the flattish bits. Not as fast, of course, but they seem to be a lot more generalist and so not having the precisely right type for the sort of terrain and snow you are in is less likely to trip me up (literally).

Another bonus is they don't seem to be as fussy about what boots you strap into them as ski bindings could be. Would still love to do more skiing, but right now I'd prefer just getting a decent catch-all set up, rather than an uber specialised one.

So, I ended up getting myself a pair of 4 season mountain boots (Raichle All-degrees), a bit larger than normal to allow for the lovely thick warm homemade wool socks (thanks to the GF!), and now I've also gotten myself a pair of strap-on C1 spikes (CT Nevis 10-pointers) for the hillier stuff. It's coming together bit by bit, and I reckon with a pair of NATO snowshoes (not too expensive) I'll have broken the back on a decent entry level set up.

Of course, that doesn't include an ice axe, snow shovel, avalanche probe, decent set of waterproofs and so on and so forth, but the basics for mobility are getting there.

Does anyone here have any experience with the NATO snowshoes, and sources for them? I've found an E-bay seller and the phots suggest they're in good nick, but you never know with stuff that's already been issued?

 

[toilet digger]

bit late seeing as you seem to have made your mind up.

http://www.snowsled.com/expedition-gear/berwyn-bindings/

these bindings take any boot, been use by the likes of stroud/fiennes in antarctica and at roughly 80 beans, affordable...ish.
no connection, just been researching it myself. (although it won't be this winter as my leg is in plaster. DOH).
regards jamie.

 

[Beardy]

Argh just when I thought I had it all figured out!

Cheers for the linky though... something to think about for next winter or whenever I want to give the ski's a go, and 80 notes is a lot more reasonable than the £500-and-something the scarily-expensive Silvretta bindings were going for

 

[DavidJT]

The Canadian Military use this binding with their winter boots.

http://www.hummocks.net/hummocks_en/

Don't really know how well the preform as a "skiing " binding.
They will be durable tho' and looks like they will fit most winter boots

Those look useful.

 

[plastic-ninja]

A bit of a "don't try this at home" type of thought but we had lots of fun over the last couple of years with regular 4-season boots and snowblades.
Not sure if you can still get them but our old blades have a rigid binding which will take a Scarpa Vega or a Manta.The down side is that the bindings are fixed
and don't release if you fall badly leading to rumours of spiral fractures.We have never hurt ourselves but they have a bad rep in some circles.
I may have some for sale shortly so give me a shout if you are anywhere close to me and I'll show you how they work.We also have some very vintage "Big Foot"
shortskis which you can tie into with a rigid boot.
I now have a couple of sets of snowshoes which are brilliant for fun on snow.If you like to get away from the skiers and boarders you can go almost anywhere on shoes.
Mine are by Inook of France and work brilliantly on all but the softest snow even for me at 6'5 and 17 stone.I often combine these with the blades for a good trip out.
Snowshoeing is fantastic aerobic exercise too.
Have fun this year ; lots of snow to come I hope.
Simon

 

[The Cumbrian]

I had heel lift bindings that fitted B3 mountaineering boots on the skis that I used in Antarctica. A bloke that I worked with there had similar bindings on his cross country skis. They also locked the heel down for when downhill skiing or skijooring. I've tried to get some at home but failed.

Let me know if you find anything, as I'd like some too.

Cheers, Michael.

 

[crucible]

There are three basic ways that you can do this, depending on what your main focus is.

They are:

1. Ski Mountaineering bindings and boots, otherwise known as alpine touring or randonee set ups in Europe. This is what you would use to do the Haute Route, for example.

2. Telemark bindings and plastic telmark boots, which are a 75mm standard configuration. This set up was originally designed for the famous telemark turn technique, but modern plastic telemark boots are so laterally stiff thst they can be skied like downhill skis with proper training.

3. Bindings for softer boot set ups like the Berwyn bindings sold on the Snowsled website. These will take any flexible boot, but are designed mainly for flat touring and do not offer any lateral support.

Alpine touring boots and bindings come in two main types, plate bindings like those made by Silvretta, Marker, etc, and the other system is designed around a binding and boot system called Dynafit. Both systems are designed to the CE and TUV standards as releasable bindings, if properly mounted and installed on your skis.

Telemark boots and bindings have a pronounced wedge in the front of the boot that might be incompatible with some crampons. You have to make sure that the boot profile, sole profile, andboot stiffness are compatible with both the crampons and ski bindings you are looking at, and that is best done at a store that specializes in these tyoes of products.

My suggestion is to look at websites like www.wildsnow.com to see a good overview on these systems.

 

[crucible]

I personally use Scarpa Alpine touring boots with Dynafit inserts in them, Dynafit bindings on Hagen alpine touring skis and Grivel F2 crampons as a backcountry skiing, ice climbing, and winter camping system.

 

[Beardy]

Shorty skis sound interesting, will have to have a gander at snow blades and the like. I have heard that the shorter the ski the easier it can be to control, and I'm guessing with a non-ski boot, the easier the better! Are the shorties quite wide to float more, since they aren't as long? Those Inooks look tasty and I have also seen some gucci looking MSR and Camp snowshoes in person, but I think I might just dip my toe in the water with something a bit more affordable, for this winter at least!

I don't suppose that you recall the name of the binding you used down there, Michael? As well as Silvretta, Berwyn and Hummocks that I have found thanks to this thread, I've found another one recommended for this sort of thingy called Icetrek Flexi http://www.icetrek.com/index.php?id=161 but not being super experienced with skiing or bindings I'm not quite sure it's the thing to go for - seems to be mainly aimed at flattish environments and the heel doesn't look like it locks down...

 

[Beardy]

There are three basic ways that you can do this, depending on what your main focus is.

They are:

1. Ski Mountaineering bindings and boots, otherwise known as alpine touring or randonee set ups in Europe. This is what you would use to do the Haute Route, for example.

2. Telemark bindings and plastic telmark boots, which are a 75mm standard configuration. This set up was originally designed for the famous telemark turn technique, but modern plastic telemark boots are so laterally stiff thst they can be skied like downhill skis with proper training.

3. Bindings for softer boot set ups like the Berwyn bindings sold on the Snowsled website. These will take any flexible boot, but are designed mainly for flat touring and do not offer any lateral support.

Alpine touring boots and bindings come in two main types, plate bindings like those made by Silvretta, Marker, etc, and the other system is designed around a binding and boot system called Dynafit. Both systems are designed to the CE and TUV standards as releasable bindings, if properly mounted and installed on your skis.

Telemark boots and bindings have a pronounced wedge in the front of the boot that might be incompatible with some crampons. You have to make sure that the boot profile, sole profile, andboot stiffness are compatible with both the crampons and ski bindings you are looking at, and that is best done at a store that specializes in these tyoes of products.

My suggestion is to look at websites like www.wildsnow.com to see a good overview on these systems.

Plenty to be getting my head round there for me! I hadn't even considered that it could be possible to get a crampon on over the duckbill type shape of a Telemark boot... I had always been looking at your Option 3 but I guess I need to look again at just what's out there and also check that linky out. It just seems like there could be quite a few kinks with me figuring out just what is compatible with what, but I guess it's best to go and try on in person really. I hadn't realised that you could get away with one boot for skiing, winter mountaineering and ice climbing though, that's pretty cool to know.

Ta muchly!
Beardy

 

[EdS]

have look here:
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Ski

The soft flexible bindings are really only designed for flat ground and not uphill climbing. For that you really need to consider Dynafit type bindings and ski mountaineering / touring boots.

Not sure how what grade skiing you do but ifyou are looking at touring you really need to spend time get half decent at straight downhill (on and off piste) first.