blade thickness?

[novembeRain]

I'm going to have a go at knife making, probably mild steel but maybe stainless because it's that bit tougher (without doing anything to it). I used to work as a welder / fabricator and one of my ex-colleagues has agreed to get me a bit of steel. What thickness would you go for? Some of Bernie's look to be about 5mm if not 6! Is that the thickness I should consider?

Also, I'm off out in the next couple of days and have come up with a bit of a plan regarding a knife just for the night. I'm thinking along the lines of getting a kichen knife, Asda's do one for about £3 and cutting / shaping the blade as a "make do" bushcraft knife, The steel's about 2.5 - 3mm thick and the handle looks reasonably comfortable and strong (full tang), you think it'll handle a night's bushcraft?

 

[SimonM]

IIRC Mora's are only about 2mm and they are more than up to the job.

My Stuart Mitchell is 3mm and takes a lot of abuse!

Simon

 

[rancid badger]

3mm is plenty-4mm is a bit thick and anything over that is too heavy and thick for a simple working knife

For your trip:
Why not just get a Mora?
you could have it before the weekend,I bought a stainless one a few months back as a canoe trip tool, it would definitely do the job and also act as a pattern for your diy project.

Saying that, I can't remember where I got the damn thing from now I do remeber it was delivered next day at no extra cost.

Just an idea anyway
best wishes
R.B.

 

[novembeRain]

To be honest, I was thinking of going tomorow and didn't think I'd have it in time.

Also, all the materials to make one would be free to me and I should be able to make a good enough job of it - so why pay!?

I've found Two hardwoods in the garage, mahogony and what I think is Beech (it's hard and pinkish) for the scales, would either be better than the other?

Do you NEED the spacers between scale and blade? or is it a decorative thing?

I know that'll take time, but I'd like to have a go and I've got a couple of nice folders that'll do for tomorow.

Oh, and sorry for posting in the wrong section (ish) I forgot about the edged tools section.

 

[SimonM]

If you want prompt delivery, give Lurch a shout at ...

http://www.lakelandbushcraft.co.uk/

Simon

 

[Mike Ameling]

The simplest quick/using knife would be to just take that common kitchen butcher knife out of the drawer and use it. You will be amazed at how well they work for most tasks. And historically, most of the classic "trade knives" or "scalper" knives here in North America were just common European kitchen/butcher knives. So that's several hundred years of use/experience.

Stainless steel will make a ... usable ... knife blade. That extra chrome and other modern alloys added into it to make it "stainless" just deminishes the best qualities of a knife blade. Stainless steel can make a nice/good knife blade, but carbon steel just makes a better one.

Stainless will still rust and stain. It just takes longer to do so. "Stainless" is just a common myth. It just slows down the oxidation/rusting do to that chrome content.

Just how will you be using this knife? Most any knife blade/shape will work for bushcrafting - unless you intend to be CHOPPING wood with it, or splitting/prying wood with it. If you are chopping/splitting/prying wood with it, then you need a thicker and heavier knife - or a machete or axe/hatchet. And the ... battonning ... that the known experts in bushcraft do is CHOPPING - but using another chunk of wood as a mallet to drive the knife blade through the wood. And that is a HARD use of a knife blade - best suited to a heavy/thick blade.

Forget mild steel for knife making. It doesn't have enough carbon content to get properly hardened to hold an edge past the first cut or two. If you want to mess around making a knife blade, just scrounge up an old push lawn mower blade. They are generally made from 1084 or 5160 high carbon alloy steel, and are already heat treated. You can generally get them free for the asking, and they run from 1/8 inch up to 1/4 inch thick - with 3/16 inch thick being very common. And you usually will have a piece almost 3 inches wide by 10 to 20 inches long to work with.

Just a few humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[leon-1]

The thickness of the blade has to be looked at in relation to it's bevels / grind and the depth of the blade. 4 or 5mm depth can make a good serviceale blade that slices well if you get the height of the bevels / grind correct and the blade is deep enough to accomodate the grind.

3mm would be easier to work with, will result in a lighter tool that maybe better to work with for prolonged periods of time and if you are doing the heat treat yourself could be easier to heat treat. There will also be less work as you will not require to remove quite as much metal.

 

[demographic]

I've found Two hardwoods in the garage, mahogony and what I think is Beech (it's hard and pinkish) for the scales, would either be better than the other?

I would have beech over "mogny" any day, to be honest I can't really stand mogny as its a bit brittle, splits and when its all said and done doesn't look that nice anyway.

Beech gets used to make carpenters mallets so whilst not being the most interesting wood to look at is at least shock resistant and tough.

 

[novembeRain]

right, all taken aboard,thankyou.

my mate popped round earlier and, though I told him 3,4 or at a push 5mm he's brought me two lengths of stainless, each about 400mm long, 50mm wide and............6mm thick!

I'll still have a go though, it'll be a bloody chunky blade but hey-ho. With it being stainless, all the grinding'll work-harden it's edge.

Are the shims between the blade and scales needed or decorative?

seeing as I'm making the blade from scratch, do I shape it then put the bevel on it or is the curve made as you bevel it?

So, a 6mm stainless blade, beech handle and single (scandi?) bevel, should be quite a nice bit of kit, if a bit chunky, what d'you think?

 

[Toddy]

That that's a parang in the making

sorry, couldn't resist

Ah, good on you, having a go at making one for yourself. Best of luck with it.
I think I'd still give Lurch a quick phone call tomorrow morning though, but that's just a tip.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Mike Ameling]

Are the shims between the blade and scales needed or decorative?

seeing as I'm making the blade from scratch, do I shape it then put the bevel on it or is the curve made as you bevel it?

So, a 6mm stainless blade, beech handle and single (scandi?) bevel, should be quite a nice bit of kit, if a bit chunky, what d'you think?

Those "shims" on the handle are decorative. Most handles are just the wood slabs glued/riveted on.

Most people "profile" the blade, then work on the bevels/edge. They get the overall shape worked out. Then the beveling is much easier to grind and keep true. If you were forging the blade to shape, then you would sort of "blend" together the profiling and beveling - to get the overall shape much closer to the final shape. Then it only requires a little "finish" grinding.

Beech was a very traditional handle material. Most of those early Trade Knives or Scalpers had beech handles. So beech wood for knife handles has several hundred years of use to back it up.

Just a few more humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[novembeRain]

That that's a parang in the making

sorry, couldn't resist

Ah, good on you, having a go at making one for yourself. Best of luck with it.
I think I'd still give Lurch a quick phone call tomorrow morning though, but that's just a tip.

cheers,
Toddy

Hmm, parang, not such a bad Idea mate - as well as a rather chunky knife.

Well, with a little elbow grease, I reckon I'll have a knife by the end of the day tomorow, may need time for glue to set and a bit of finishing but I'm quite confident about having one pretty much done.

I'm going for the usual pattern, 4" ish handle with up to a 4" blade and just the one bevel (to keep things simple). Can one of you geniuses work out how wide the bevel should be for the best angle (can't remember triginometry) I'm guessing at about 9mm wide (both sides) it'll give me a rough guide when I come to putting the edge on it.

I can see beech isn't going to be the most decoritive of materials but it should be a nice Knife nonetheless.

Thanks for the advise, I'll post pics when I'm all done

 

[Traper]

If it's 6mm thick 9mm wide is not enough IMO. More likely something near 15mm.

With this thickness I would consider full flat with secondary bevel. It's going to be lighter and still very strong.

And those are just my humble thoughts ;-)

 

[Matt.S]

novembeRain,

Hi there, I'm glad to see you're getting into a bit of blademaking. Making blade shapes out of scrap steel is a great way to practice your technique and learn what you like in a knife shape. However, as Mike has already stated, mild is not much good as a blade steel -- same for most types of stainless. Your typical black mild has about 0.2% carbon by weight, whereas a good knife steel will have much more. O1 for instance has about 1%, as does W1/1095. Even something like EN8, which is a little low but usable for chopping tools, has about 0.5%. It's all to do with the hardness of the steel, which affects edge retention. You will soon appreciate this subtle yet crucial difference when you try to put an edge on the blade, and then use it!

If you can get to a Marks and Spencer's anytime soon, the kitchen dept. usually has a small veggie knife for about £3.50 which is a good bushcrafting knife, just needs a sheath. That or try local camping and military surplus stores near you. Remember to match your gear choice to where you're going; not much call for a snow saw in Cornwall for instance. You may find that a Swiss Army knife might do you for this trip, so you can spend a bit longer researching and buying/making yourself a more universal knife.

Hope I didn't deflate your sails too much with this post, just thought you might appreciate a little time saved or explanation why your knife doesn't turn out exactly how you wanted. There are some excellent blademaking guides on the internet (including this fine site), and if you want pointing in the right direction feel free to drop me a PM.

 

[Diligence]

For an included angle of 20 degrees (i.e. angle of bevel flats relative to each other), which I believe is in the typical range for scandi grinds, you need bevel widths that are 17mm wide with a 6mm thick blade.

for a handy formula try this:

(thickness of blade / included angle) * 56.7 = width of scandi bevel

just figured this out over a coffee - so your mileage may vary....all you blade masters out there, tell me if I'm wrong.

D

 

[novembeRain]

Thanks all, Well - I did it!

It's not much of a looker but it's more than useable. I started with a bit of 304l stainless flat bar 50mm X 6 X about 400.

I cut this down to 8" by about 37mm, drilled two holes and drew the outline freehand, then spent ages grinding the thing to shape - which I think resulted in a nice blank.

The scales are some african wood, which I can't remember the name of but it looks a lot like beech. This is where I spoiled the knife's appearence a bit because I rushed this stage and it shows.

The bevel worked out to be a good 12-15mm and has come out fantasticly sharp after a good hour on the oil stone. I've had a play with it and it's held it's edge sofar and it works great with the firesteel.

Soo, I'm pretty happy that I can make a reasonable job of a knife, and now I've got a knife that I can use and SERIOUSLY abuse! But, I would like to do about a 4mm blade and take a lot more time on the looks of it.

Sorry, no photo but it'n not much to look at anyway. Thanks again for the advise.

 

[novembeRain]

Well, there it is, not the best of pictures unfortunately but gives an idea. No metal pins, I used wooden dowels but they're pretty chunky so the knife still seems pretty tough. The wood went really dark when I got oil all over it (one problem with an oil stone as opposed to a whet stone I guess).

While I was out, as you can see, I got a fire going even though everything was soaked through and tried roasted crab apples - which were a bit too sharp really but you've gotta try these things

I had to split a few bigger sticks and take the bark off others to get the fire going (which was quite tricky to start with) and the knife held it's edge pretty well - I did sharpen it when I got home though because I hadn't done a great job yesterday.

I just need some hard 3 - 4mm to play with now

 

[pauldr]

i have made a few knifes and i always use 4mm i tried it with 3mm it was easier to work with but i left it in the furnace too long and i melted it :-(